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#1
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Re: Look at the Big Picture
Sean, I know kind of what you've been through with ASME. I compete in the SAE Collegiate Design Series, specifically the Aero Design Competition.
There, the 60 pages or so of rules are pretty clear. (No comment on the number of questions that could be answered by simply reading the rules. Ratio is probably much higher than here.) However, this year, for the annual rule change, the rule changed was: No carbon fiber or fiberglass. Several teams went for basalt fiber as an alternative. After a few months, a team that was making sure that basalt was in fact legal managed to get clarification on what counted as fiberglass. Basalt counted. Teams had already made parts out of basalt and had to redesign. Here, in FRC, the rulebook is what, twice that length? There are really only two--now three--rules that have people scratching their heads/annoyed. The bumper rule, <G14> (mainly for the reasoning behind that), and now the ruling that a battery with leads isn't exempt from the withholding allowance are the rules that are most annoying/least clear. Could FIRST have done better? Possibly. 8-10 people with inside knowledge of intent can't fully anticipate 15,000+ people without that knowledge, though. No matter how hard they try, they can't make the rules completely, 100% clear for the large group. That's why Q&A exists. In effect, ALL of the FRC teams that post questions are GDC advisers. They tell the GDC, through questions, what isn't clear. The GDC then has a chance to make their intent clear, and change/clarify the rules accordingly. Will they learn from this? Probably. We can expect that they won't make the same "mistakes", if such the annoying rules are, again. They may even fix the one they can before competition. Remember, they're human. Humans have a tendency to learn. In fact, it's often the case that a "failure" is a bigger learning experience than a success. Let's all take the rest of the weekend off. Chill out. Come back Monday or Tuesday and talk a bit more. (BTW, this post is written by someone who is under some minor stress due to having 4 R/C planes to complete in 11 days, plus making their payload plates and the molds for said plates. And no, the planes aren't close to done. Maybe 50%.) Last edited by EricH : 22-02-2009 at 03:32. |
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#2
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Re: Look at the Big Picture
hehe.....the mandatory batteries in the past being shipped in the crate is the least of our worries. Our crate, cart and robot weighs 360 pounds BEFORE packing tools, spare parts, and everything else.
This year we went light. A manini-sized 691 pounds total as opposed to 1000+ in the past. Why so much? For all of you that attend local events or drive to a nearby state, lucky that you can bring everthing else to the event separately. Our Hawaii regional event would be an advantage for us, if we didnt attend a mainland regional first. ![]() |
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#3
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Re: Look at the Big Picture
As I posted elsewhere, the GDC really does a pretty good job. Of the literally hundreds of rules and definitions, how many of them are we stressed about? A half dozen?
Just as your robot is never done because it's not perfect, the rules are never perfect. That doesn't mean the GDC shouldn't strive for perfection. Part of moving toward that goal is valid constructive criticism. Things will get overlooked in the design process, whether robot or rules. Things will have to be corrected. Things will have to be pointed out when they are adversely affecting teams, especially late in the season. Every year we have some sort of rules floo-fla. The most complaints come from flip-flops, when things that were ruled legal a week after kickoff were ruled illegal after ship, or when things that were illegal in W1 events were made legal for W3. This battery thing impresses most people as a flip-flop, because it goes against previous practice - even if the rules are the same as in previous years, they didn't seem to be enforced or mentioned then. I've worked on rules committees, and there are two extremes of going about it. You can make the rules general, and then have those enforcing the rules make all the interpretations needed. Or you can make the rules very specific and restrictive leaving no room for interpretation. The first is good if everyone doing the official interpretation - referees, judges, inspectors, etc - are on the same wavelength. But we've seen cases in the past where an interpretation was made, misconstrued by people hearing that interpretation, and there was great debate and consternation. It can lead to inconsistancy. The OCCRA rules committee generally follows this path, but it works because the same group of people write the rules, interpret and answer questions on the rules, and enforce the rules as inspectors and referees. The restrictive method is often used in government regulations, insurance, other highly-bureaucratic organizations. Rules can't be fixed, even when the results of a rule are unfair. FRC attempts to take a partial middle path, and sometimes veers too far to one side or the other for some people's tastes. They attempt to allow some interpretation by giving guidance to those who will be making the interpretations - e.g. inspector and referee training, testing and conference calls. But there is also the place for the GDC to make definitive rulings, even if people don't like those rulings. We don't excuse the GDC because "they're doing the best they can." But at the same time, we should not harshly criticise the GDC, because "they are doing the best they can." I firmly believe that - those committee members I have met, even briefly, certainly have a passion for what they are doing and want to give teams and students the best possible experiences. |
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#4
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Re: Look at the Big Picture
The big picture is that FIRST is a program to promote engineering and technology as career choices for high school students.
Think back to when you were starting out on a team. Remember the excitement you felt. Do you have that excitement on your team now? This is about getting students thinking and interested in career choices, about changing the way we collaborate with others. Is this is going on now? Do you see that excitement? Try running a team. You need to keep everyone happy. You need to attract talent onto the team and you need to keep your older students excited. Have an honest talk with your team leaders about what they have to do and why they do it. Ask them what their big picture is. Share with them what your big picture is. Is everyone on the same page? Let's get the excitement back. How do we do that? |
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#5
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Re: Look at the Big Picture
Quote:
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#6
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Re: Look at the Big Picture
I think Sean's post was made at the perfect time.
I feel that this year has more complaining then any other that I can remember (G22 from '08 does not count ). I was surprised at all of the complaining about various rules this year. Of course every game is going to have the rule that every one hates (G22 from '08) but this year people complained about everything. Yes, the bumper rules are strict - Yes, it'd be nice to be able to leave the starting envelope - Yes, it'd be nice to carry in our batteries and plug them in the instant we get in our pits, but so what? Rules are rules. There's no point in complaining about things you can't change, and if you feel like you can change them then complain to the right people. Remember, CD is not an official source of Info from FIRST. Anything said here is not official and anything said here probably won't reach the people it needs to reach. So if you want to change something talk to the people in power, don't clutter up this site with pointless complaining. And I think John and Alex are on to something. For some reason students just aren't as excited about this year as they were before. I don't know what it is but there just seems to be some underlying negativity in the air lately. I know on my team we have gone through a radical change in the last few months and that may be where some of it stems from but it seems to be FIRST wide... (And I know I'm not perfect, I have been know to complain about a rule or three.) |
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#7
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Re: Look at the Big Picture
I'll throw in some change
![]() I've been involved in robot competitions for more than 15 years. ASME, ANS, AUVSI, FIRST, BattleBots, RobotWars, Robotica and my own production BotBash. Concerns about rules are always the same when you get a bunch of intelligent people who are so passionate about being involved. FIRST FRC in particular has elevated blood pressure having to do with this because of the sheer quantity of people involved. Everyone has an opinion. When I first saw the <G14> rule a few months back, I knew it would be the lightening rod this year and really didn't have a high opinion of it, as I thought "why punish the teams who are "good"". But after I settled down about it, I just realized "ITS A GAME RULE", it adds to the challenge. Game rules are usually derived from something that one person did that was of enough concern that it was felt a rule should be made for one reason or another, or it could be something someone responsible just wants to try to see if it reaches a desired effect. I mean just like building engineering prototypes, no one can guarantee new ideas will work unless something is tried. Rules that may seem like they make no sense, do have reason. It just might not be wise to disseminate the reason as with highly passionate people it might cause more grief then letting them wonder why. GDC isn’t dumb. What the GDC has to do every year in this regard is an incredible feat, and to tell the truth, I think they do a very good job given the overall circumstances. Fact is you will NEVER make everyone happy, you just do the best you can and then paint the bulls-eye on your chest, it’ll always be the same because people don’t change. I just wish they’d get rid of the “no celebration rule” in the NFL, I like the dances…… |
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#8
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Re: Look at the Big Picture
I personaly dont mind the rules that much, it just makes it more of a challenge for me
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