Power of Math Proven in NJ

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Posted by Bradley Mock at 03/17/2001 3:51 PM EST


Coach on team #250, Shen, from RPI and GE/Verizon.



the finals match at the NJ competition was amazing. it is as follows in terms of A's and B's:
A: 89
B: 464
B: 102
A: 472
B: 552
A: 552
avg A: 370
avg B: 372.6
what was even more amazing was that in every single round for both teams, there was room for at least one more small ball. one more ball from either team would have won the competition outright. Especially amazing is that alliance A didn't know how many small balls were needed in the goal to win. Their strategy was based on needing 10 small balls in order to win. Before people go into a match, they should know exactly what they need to score. I almost screamed when they pulled away from the human player and only had 9 balls in the goal. there was no suspense, i knew 30 seconds into the round that they lost. It was still an awesome match with an amazing score, don't get me wrong, but i just think teams need a player or coach that knows point totals (and can do quick algebra) inside and out.
On a related note, this is the reason John (captain of team 250) kept throwing balls at the goal as it was moving away and thankfully sank his hail mary shot form half-court. just my 2 cents.
sorry if it sounds like i was bashing ya 365, 303, 191, and 103. that was not my intention. i only hope that we can all learn from this.
as woody said in our regionals and i think it is more applicable here, "I couldn't have scripted a more exciting and close match." or something like that.

brad

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Posted by Laurence at 03/17/2001 4:17 PM EST


Engineer on team #537, Domo ARIGATO, from Sussex-Hamilton and GE Medical Systems.


In Reply to: Power of Math Proven in NJ
Posted by Bradley Mock on 03/17/2001 3:51 PM EST:



On a similar note, remember that multipliers are only useful if you have points to multiply.

There was a match in the SC regionals where they stopped time with only 2 (or 3) small balls in the goal. The match score was under 10 when they should have let a robot that was on its way to the endzone continue.

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Posted by Dan Baker at 03/17/2001 8:00 PM EST


Student on team #365, Miracle Workerz, from Avon Grove High School and Dupont .


In Reply to: Power of Math Proven in NJ
Posted by Bradley Mock on 03/17/2001 3:51 PM EST:



: the finals match at the NJ competition was amazing. it is as follows in terms of A's and B's:
: A: 89
: B: 464
: B: 102
: A: 472
: B: 552
: A: 552
: avg A: 370
: avg B: 372.6
: what was even more amazing was that in every single round for both teams, there was room for at least one more small ball. one more ball from either team would have won the competition outright. Especially amazing is that alliance A didn't know how many small balls were needed in the goal to win. Their strategy was based on needing 10 small balls in order to win. Before people go into a match, they should know exactly what they need to score. I almost screamed when they pulled away from the human player and only had 9 balls in the goal. there was no suspense, i knew 30 seconds into the round that they lost. It was still an awesome match with an amazing score, don't get me wrong, but i just think teams need a player or coach that knows point totals (and can do quick algebra) inside and out.
: On a related note, this is the reason John (captain of team 250) kept throwing balls at the goal as it was moving away and thankfully sank his hail mary shot form half-court. just my 2 cents.
: sorry if it sounds like i was bashing ya 365, 303, 191, and 103. that was not my intention. i only hope that we can all learn from this.
: as woody said in our regionals and i think it is more applicable here, "I couldn't have scripted a more exciting and close match." or something like that.

: brad

I greatly disagree with your view of how the match went down and where the errors were. First, it would have been impossible to know 30sec into the match that it was going to be lost because it wasn't lost, it was actually tied. The lose wouldn't come until after all the matches due to the tie. Second, while the finals could have been won by having simply another ball in the goal, there would have been great risk involved in making that final shot. Were the ball to seat poorly it might prevent a big ball from being placed on top, which would have spelled certain defeat. Also it would have taken additional time, time which was greatly needed.
Both sides played increadibly hard and did an absoulty fantastic job. We had a spectacular alliance with 303, 191 and 103 who were really some of the best robots to play on that field. I think trying to second guess such a gray area as that extra ball would have been amounts to mere foolishness, to many factors were involved.
I'd also like to congratulate everyone that was involved at the mid atlantic regional. Each match was exciting and there was a lot of really neat robots on the field. I look forward to seeing everyone again at Nationals, and i wish them good luck in whatever regionals they may have left.

-Dan Baker
(Team 365)

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Posted by Wayne Cokeley at 03/18/2001 7:06 AM EST


Coach on team #25, Raider Robotix, from North Brunswick Twp. H.S. and Bristol-Myers Squibb.


In Reply to: I greatly disagree
Posted by Dan Baker on 03/17/2001 8:00 PM EST:



: : the finals match at the NJ competition was amazing. it is as follows in terms of A's and B's:
: : A: 89
: : B: 464
: : B: 102
: : A: 472
: : B: 552
: : A: 552
: : avg A: 370
: : avg B: 372.6
: : what was even more amazing was that in every single round for both teams, there was room for at least one more small ball. one more ball from either team would have won the competition outright. Especially amazing is that alliance A didn't know how many small balls were needed in the goal to win. Their strategy was based on needing 10 small balls in order to win. Before people go into a match, they should know exactly what they need to score. I almost screamed when they pulled away from the human player and only had 9 balls in the goal. there was no suspense, i knew 30 seconds into the round that they lost. It was still an awesome match with an amazing score, don't get me wrong, but i just think teams need a player or coach that knows point totals (and can do quick algebra) inside and out.
: : On a related note, this is the reason John (captain of team 250) kept throwing balls at the goal as it was moving away and thankfully sank his hail mary shot form half-court. just my 2 cents.
: : sorry if it sounds like i was bashing ya 365, 303, 191, and 103. that was not my intention. i only hope that we can all learn from this.
: : as woody said in our regionals and i think it is more applicable here, "I couldn't have scripted a more exciting and close match." or something like that.

: : brad

: I greatly disagree with your view of how the match went down and where the errors were. First, it would have been impossible to know 30sec into the match that it was going to be lost because it wasn't lost, it was actually tied. The lose wouldn't come until after all the matches due to the tie. Second, while the finals could have been won by having simply another ball in the goal, there would have been great risk involved in making that final shot. Were the ball to seat poorly it might prevent a big ball from being placed on top, which would have spelled certain defeat. Also it would have taken additional time, time which was greatly needed.
: Both sides played increadibly hard and did an absoulty fantastic job. We had a spectacular alliance with 303, 191 and 103 who were really some of the best robots to play on that field. I think trying to second guess such a gray area as that extra ball would have been amounts to mere foolishness, to many factors were involved.
: I'd also like to congratulate everyone that was involved at the mid atlantic regional. Each match was exciting and there was a lot of really neat robots on the field. I look forward to seeing everyone again at Nationals, and i wish them good luck in whatever regionals they may have left.

: -Dan Baker
: (Team 365)

The elimination rounds at Rutgers were one of the most memorable competitions I have enver seen. Under the intense pressure, the noise, mass hysteria and confusion involved with the rush of the finals it is amazing how all the teams involved performed. One ball more or less, a toppled 10 pointer, 5 more seconds- these variables are impossible to follow under the circumstances. But then that's the competition isn't it?
Team 25 wishes to thank all of our fellow teams for a truly great regional filled with excitement and suspense and we would like to congratulate all of our friends on both the winning and runner up alliances. We are looking forward to seeing everybody in Orlando.

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 03/18/2001 8:17 AM EST


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.


In Reply to: Re: I greatly disagree
Posted by Wayne Cokeley on 03/18/2001 7:06 AM EST:



.....the confusion. Isn't it interesting that we've gone through 6 weeks of building, are halfway through competition season, and even the most seasoned teams (as well as the judges "We have to check the rule book on this one&quot can't agree on what the rules of the finals are?

Through the cheering after we found out the last match was a tie, all I could picture in my head was if Joe J was here he'd probably faint or something seeing them flip that coin (knowing how he feels about the tiebreakers and even though the highest average score won the thing).

But I think the confusion added to the excitement, and it was intriguing to watch the teams around me pull out endless information from nowhere about the game to prove their points.

Congrats to the winners and all that played; it certainly was worth the drive & the wait.

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Nate Smith at 03/18/2001 12:26 PM EST


Other on team #66, Frostbite, from Willow Run High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: The most interesting point.....
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 03/18/2001 8:17 AM EST:



: .....the confusion. Isn't it interesting that we've gone through 6 weeks of building, are halfway through competition season, and even the most seasoned teams (as well as the judges "We have to check the rule book on this one&quot can't agree on what the rules of the finals are?

A few things to keep in mind about this one...

- The majority of the referees are local volunteers, and get a crash course in the game Thursday night, with the head referee being from FIRST or DEKA, and traveling to the various events.

- Those on the traveling staff may have known all the rules at one point, but with three weeks of flying all over the country and being at various events, if there's something that you've only seen once(if at all,) such as the tie breakers for elims, you're going to forget the details of it...

Nate

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Posted by Matt Leese at 03/18/2001 9:37 AM EST


Other on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.


In Reply to: Power of Math Proven in NJ
Posted by Bradley Mock on 03/17/2001 3:51 PM EST:



Just a little perspective from someone who was there (at the risk of this becoming an ad for my team....). Anyway, I was told (and this comes through the X-cats) that the reason an extra ball as not put in the goal was beause they were afraid an extra ball would not allow the big ball to sit on top of the goal and without that they were dead in the water.

The second point I want to make is that there wasn't a single black ball in the far goal. Not a one. And yes, there are robots (us in particular) that can handle those small balls well. Those WILL be the difference in elimination matches. I actually expect it to become more prevalent at Nationals because there will be more teams with comparable abilities. There's only so fast it's humanly possible to go. So I would say at least consider those black ball teams for the far side of the field....

Matt who's team still managed to get picked even if we were the last pick....(thanks Kodak/Marshall!)