Mentor Involvement

[Argoth126]

I have always wondered how much mentor involvement is too much? I know mentors shouldn't be the ones building the robot but where should the line be drawn?

[Vikesrock]

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here and suggest that we avoid having this discussion during build season. If you want the opinion of a lot of very well respected members of this forum on this issue check out this thread from last year:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=66536

[vivek16]

You know, there have been lengthy discussions (some have turned into flame wars) here on chiefdelphi on the subject. The answer is that there isn't a definitive answer. Everyone seems to have their own opinion and many will defend it fiercely.

Personally, I think that the best balance lies when mentors let the kids do most of the work but can still assure that the kids are capable of doing it. The role of mentors isn't to do all the work and it's not to sit back and not do anything, there has to be a balance where they are actually mentoring the kids.

Again, everyone has their own opinion and each team has to find the balance that works best for them. If the kids are getting inspired, then that's the whole point of the program.

-Vivek

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Argoth126

I have always wondered how much mentor involvement is too much? I know mentors shouldn't be the ones building the robot but where should the line be drawn?

now, that isn't true across the FIRST spectrum. For some teams, the students don't do anything but drive the robot and observe the mentors building the robot. It all depends on the team's interpretation of "inspiration."

[EricH]

Whew... Please, before you go any further, search for threads about mentors and students. This has been extensively...um..."discussed"... or...shall we say..."debated"... over the years.

The answer is: How much do YOU say is too much? Some folks say it's all right to have 100% mentors and 0% students. (Note: in this situation, I call the mentors "overgrown children", but that's beside the point.) Others say it's just fine to have 0% mentors and 100% students. Others like a 50-50 balance, or some other area in the middle. Bottom line is, it's your team's call, and if another team wants to call you, say, "cheaters", for having a high amount of adult work, you don't have to listen.

For reference:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=mentor-built
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=mentor-built
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=mentor-built has a post with a list of such threads.

[R.C.]

Congrats on your first post and heres the quick and easy answer. It depends on your team, if you want more mentor involvement, do so. If you don't be student run. YOUR CHOICE. Have fun and I hope to see you guys at Champs.

[Rick TYler]

In the last five years there have been dozens if not hundreds of threads regarding the role of mentors in youth robotics programs. Rather than starting an unbounded discussion of philosophy, I imagine that you would learn more by asking a specific question or airing a particular concern. Most of the time these threads are started by a student who feels their mentors are unfair, doing too much, doing the wrong thing, or in some other way not living up to the expectations of the student. I suggest that you either just say what's bothering you if you do have a specific issue, or search for old threads on the philosophy of mentoring. I doubt there is anything new to be said on the subject.

I am deeply disappointed in the new FTC policy prohibiting mentor involvement in design and construction. From the FTC "Coach Manual": The students on my team do all programming, research, problem-solving, and building. Adults can help them find the answers, but cannot give them the answers or make the decisions.

Perhaps if this policy is the right one for FLL and FTC it should be applied to FRC?

[EricVanWyk]

Overly dominant mentors are like porn - you know it when you see it.

I saw it this weekend, and it left a really bad taste in my mouth: A team I once respected and looked up to ruined it for me in less than 30 seconds: Ten-ish 40 year old mentors in a pit with not a student in sight. When asked where they were, I got the response "Pffft, I'm the one that has to fix everything."

[BPetry234]

One of our mentors put it very well. There are 4 ways to look at it. I do, you watch. I do, you help. You do, I help. You do, I watch. From a students stand point, we hate it when mentors take over. However, you are supposed to be teaching us. Our team is mostly you do, I help, but since since only have at most 18 years of life experiences to base our facts of off, we need guidence sometimes, so do every once in awhile resort to I do, you help.

It probably just comes down to what you think is best. Talk to your students and see how they feel. Communication is key.

[Jared Russell]

There is no right answer.

Though in my opinion, there are certainly wrong answers.

100% mentor/0% student is not a model that I would recommend. Nor 100% student/0% mentor (though circumstances sometimes dictate this).

[JewishDan18]

Originally Posted by EricVanWyk

Overly dominant mentors are like porn - you know it when you see it.

I saw it this weekend, and it left a really bad taste in my mouth: A team I once respected and looked up to ruined it for me in less than 30 seconds: Ten-ish 40 year old mentors in a pit with not a student in sight. When asked where they were, I got the response "Pffft, I'm the one that has to fix everything."

Are you from 166, talking about team 20?

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by BPetry234

One of our mentors put it very well. There are 4 ways to look at it. I do, you watch. I do, you help. You do, I help. You do, I watch. From a students stand point, we hate it when mentors take over. However, you are supposed to be teaching us. Our team is mostly you do, I help, but since since only have at most 18 years of life experiences to base our facts of off, we need guidence sometimes, so do every once in awhile resort to I do, you help.

It probably just comes down to what you think is best. Talk to your students and see how they feel. Communication is key.

I don't think I could have answered this question any better.

[Andrew Schreiber]

The sole exception to the, "it is up to your team" rule is when safety is concerned. If a mentor sees a student doing something unsafe it is their RESPONSIBILITY to stop them. This includes physical harm to the students or damage to materials or equipment. Students, if a mentor yells at you to stop I highly suggest you listen, remember, many mentors work with these tools daily and KNOW what is dangerous and what is not. We are also liable if you get hurt or equipment gets damaged.

And this is NOT just my $.02, this should be LAW for all teams.

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by JewishDan18

Are you from 166, talking about team 20?

No, I'm from 20 (many years ago), talking about a team I won't name (but isn't 20).

The first year I was on 20 (it was 250 then), the programming mentor did _everything_. During build season I tried desperately to learn programming, but to know avail. It turned out that he couldn't make it to the regional, so I learned PBASIC in the car ride there. My view point is very much impacted by that.

I believe that things have changed since then, but I'm not involved with 20 enough to know anything about how it is run. I do know that my 2nd and third years went much better.{edit} In my second year, that particular mentor was gone, so I led programming and taught a few students. My third year, I moved to animation (so cool!) and only provided assistance to the programmers when they asked.

{EDIT}As a mentor, I err on the side of "A Mentor's job is to prevent injury", which probably infuriates my students and make them think I am lazy/incompetent/ugly. I'm over reacting from my experience, and it is also just too rewarding to watch them learn things on their own.

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by BPetry234

I do, you watch. I do, you help. You do, I help. You do, I watch.

I'd go so far as to say that the interaction should go through all four of those stages.

I'll be interested to know what the students on my team think. I think I'll ask them this weekend.