Shooter vs Dumper Trade Study

[AlexD744]

Originally Posted by Mr B

It seems to me that the biggest constraint of dumping balls into a goal is the size limit of the robot <R11>. Without being able to exceed the perimeter, dumpers would have to be right next to a goal and be relatively unmolested to score a high percentage of balls. Still, a team that figures out a way to dump a load reliably and fast would be a force.

I wonder what this means about pinks design.

[travis48elite]

Well both systems have there ups and downs. However, I would have go towards the dumper system due to the fact that shooters run the risk of collecting a damaged game piece and getting it jammed in their shooter and then they are out for the rest of the match. Where as for a dumper it does not present such a hazard to jamming their mechanism. Yet with a dumper once you activate you mechanism you are pretty much hoping you will score all you pieces in the trailer however, this never happens most of the time. The only way you can accomplish this is by pining the robot's trailer to the wall and score. Ultimately, I would have to go with the dumper just because come championship who knows if we are even going to have enough game pieces for the four fields in each division.

[gorrilla]

what about the "ninja" robots,they will score only 2-4 moon rocks at a time but will do it the entire match, every time,from anywhere....?

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by travis48elite

Yet with a dumper once you activate you mechanism you are pretty much hoping you will score all you pieces in the trailer however, this never happens most of the time.

If you pay attention to the midwest matches, you will see more balls spat out in error by the shooters than the dumpers, at least our dumper. Our auxiliary guy had fast enough fingers to save the majority of the balls if we triggered and they moved, and even if they did miss they fell right in front of our massive intake....and came right back in the bot to be scored typically seconds later.

[thefro526]

From what I've seen so far, Dumpers in General are the way to go.

For now or at least for the next few weeks, Dumpers, Both Non-Powered and Powered, are going to reign supreme. Drivers, Don't take this the wrong way, but at this point in time many Dumpers are easier to drive than shooters, the big issue is that many Shooters still need to work bugs out of their targeting code.

I think Powered Dumpers will have the most success in the long run but it's still possible for shooters to break into the game strongly. As for Gravity Dumpers I think their days are numbered. Once most teams work the bugs out of their shooters we'll see Gravity Dumpers fall out of favor.

[Norman J]

Originally Posted by RoboGeek99

I might forgotten something but after looking at all of these as unbiased as possible im leaning toward going with a shooter mechanism (thinking of a softball/tennis ball shooter powered by globes and an archimedes screw or conveyor system to get the balls in place)
Either way yall go good luck!

My team has a conveyor to a shooter and it works quite well, but at Kettering, I noticed that if a robot is pinned, a power dumper can drive right up and unload. Happened to us from 65.

But I have heard many people voice the theory that as the season progresses and driving improves, dumpers will be dodged more easily and we won't see any more 12-15 ball game changing dumps. Drivers should be experienced enough by then that they either won't get pinned or will be able to get out of one fast enough. In such a scenario, shooters will be able to easily compete with dumpers. I'm not sure about that, just repeating what I heard.

[BurtGummer]

After attending the LA regional this weekend, I saw both systems do great. I saw 1717 with their shooter, although they usually kept it within a 5 foot range. Their advantage was being able to aim however they wanted, so if they got pinned there were more possibilities for them to score on the pinning robot than if they were a dumper. Their distance was also easily controlled by retractable hood on the turret. Their drive system was also very nice, but I did not get to see what exactly it was. From a distant observation, it looked like each front wheel was steered like a car. I'm not sure about the rear wheels. Overall a very well built robot, and we had the pleasure of working with them and winning a round 88 to 6.

Team 399 was a dumper, and also did extremely well. Once they were filled, they could haul across the field and dump their whole load with ease. We were one of their victims, and we saw it coming before they even got to us, because they had an advantage on speed. Also another very well built robot.

So both designs worked well, although 'shooters' kept close ranges.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by BurtGummer

After attending the LA regional this weekend, I saw both systems do great. I saw 1717 with their shooter, although they usually kept it within a 5 foot range. Their advantage was being able to aim however they wanted, so if they got pinned there were more possibilities for them to score on the pinning robot than if they were a dumper. Their distance was also easily controlled by retractable hood on the turret. Their drive system was also very nice, but I did not get to see what exactly it was. From a distant observation, it looked like each front wheel was steered like a car. I'm not sure about the rear wheels. Overall a very well built robot, and we had the pleasure of working with them and winning a round 88 to 6.

Team 399 was a dumper, and also did extremely well. Once they were filled, they could haul across the field and dump their whole load with ease. We were one of their victims, and we saw it coming before they even got to us, because they had an advantage on speed. Also another very well built robot.

So both designs worked well, although 'shooters' kept close ranges.

207, 330, 399 and proved for me at LA nonturreting dumpers work great.

1717 and 1726 proved to me that "turreted dumpers" that can get balls out FAST at point blank, using the turret just to account for missalignment, have the potential to be amazing. They were less consistent than the simple dumpers as they require much more software, but when they shined they SHINED. Witnessing 1717 strafe sideways following a goal while they're turret was locked on to the target and filling it was the single most impressive sight I've seen this season.

[Spylake]

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight I think the results favor the hybrid, short range volume shooters followed very closely by dumpers. A dumper's success turns out to be directly related to the speed of the dump mechanism. The fast dumpers like our alliance leader Team 179 Swamp Thing were very effective.

Overall, I think, the tracking long range shooters were the least effective. The challenge of tracking and ranging along with the required leading of a moving target is a daunting one.

It will be interesting to see if more software development before Atlanta will improve their performance substantially.

[kwojcik]

1717 Aux-pilot here. I'm very happy with the way that our turret played out, but our distance calculations were bogus the turret aiming was a little sketchy at times and I constantly had to be re-targeting vision targets even at point blank, sometimes resorting to complete manual mode.

We have left-right swerve drive, complimented with a very physics-based traction control system that we feel really gives us max power. I know the talk around LA was that you cannot get out of pins, but after retuning our traction control (we had brand new wheels, and they got worn in) in one of those championship matches we were able to vector out of a very very well placed pin using our traction control system in which the other robot actually hooked into our ball collector(not sure which team, but nice driving).

As far as shooting vs dumping, the lighting made distance shooting completely unreliable and we resorted to point-blank power dumps. Ideally, I feel like a very good shooting robot would dominate because they could avoid being caught in the chaos, but then again it would be hard to find a safe place to shoot from within the chaos

[thefro526]

From what I've seen, and I've watched quite a few matches, most of the Robot Scoring is done within 2 feet of the trailer. Essentially, all Robots whether they're "Shooters" or "Dumpers" are all playing the same game. Pin or impede your target and score on it.

I'd have to say that Powered Dumping is still the way to go. A Power Dumper has the ideal cross between Range and Qaunitity of Balls Delivered and that makes them deadly effective. Power Dumpers have shown that they don't have to rely on pinning as Much as An "Gravity" or "All or Nothing" Dumper because of the range that they have.

As far as Shooters go, they're all playing the Power Dumper game. I've yet to see a shooter that constantly scores from long range into a trailer. It seems like most of the get within a few feet of a robot or pin and robot and score. This has been very effective for teams that chose to adapt to this strategy but even then most Shooters (Robots like 1114 being the exception) just can't keep up with the raw amount of balls that a Powered Dumper or Gravity Dumper can deliver.

Then there are "Gravity" and "All Or Nothing" Dumpers. They're still holding their own but no one knows how much longer they can do it. Many teams are now getting to their second regional time and have all of the bugs worked out of their systems. The thing that saved many Gravity Dumpers in earlier weeks was the fact that they were more simple and easier to drive than a Shooter or Powered Dumper. Don't get me wrong, Gravity Dumpers will still have a very important role in this game, it just may change. On a final note, we've seen one "All or Nothing" Dumper do some amazing things, Check out 179 and 1345.. Those robots are possibly the epitome of the Unpowered Dumper.

So as we sit in Heading into Week Four, I'd Have to say Powered Dumpers are the most effective, Shooters are Working their way into the Game, and Gravity Dumpers are doing what they've always been doing - Being Reliable.

Then again, this is all just my opinion and what do I know?

[gorrilla]

seeing how effective our shooter was,
versus how easy it was for dumpers to score alot,
im thinking about changing our robot to power-dumper,

we have a-while untill atlanta to figure it out....

[Jimmy Cao]

Dumpers really had their way at Cass Tech this last weekend. 67 was clearly the best, with an extremely fast dumper (at least, I'll call it a dumper. It didn't shoot, hence it dumped =P).

However, 217 stood out as the best shooter. With their adjustable shooter and good camera aim, they often managed to load and score 2 supercells in the last 20 seconds of their matches.

As the season progresses, I still predict that power dumpers will do extremely well. Even as drivers get better at avoiding dumpers, dumpers get better at getting to goals. However, at the championship level, dumpers may find it more difficult to get "easy" targets, and will need to spend more time chasing someone around to get a pin in order to score.

Just my $.02

[Creator Mat]

Has anyone seen a long range shooter??? I have heard people in the forums mention "ninja" bots but i have not actually heard a name of a bot.

[CSideris28]

The best robots that I have seen this year are able to bump into a trailer, and during that seemingly instantaneous period of contact, are able to unload anywhere between 5 - 15 balls. Teams like 20, 111, 121, 175, 254, 1625, as well as many others fit this description. Although teams like 40, 217, and 1114 have had success with turreted shooters, they are in a very small minority. I don't think that anyone will disagree with me when i say that a higher percentage of power dumpers than shooters have been effective, and that fact is what makes me favor power dumpers in general.