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Unread 08-03-2009, 23:20
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellery View Post
Thanks to our Alliance partners 1503, 173 - I think we would have gone farther if we were not succumbed to the intermittent field issue. This issue was not acknowledged till the final match and the root cause, as I was told by the field crew, was an "intermittent Emergency Stop Switch" at the Red Center Driver Station and NOT a "cRIO Powercycling failure on your robot or static causing communication drops" as 639, 211, 1503 were told initially. I hope they documented this issue and junked the part that was replaced. This was probably a continuation of the issues seen at BAE in week #1. I'd hate to see what happened here repeat once more for the remainder of the competition season where outcomes may have been different because of this.
1503's Robot Signal light would go fully out, then blink fast, then come solid again. Once they began to try driving again, the RSL would go out, blink fast, then solid again over a period of roughly 30-45 seconds. While they were located at what was eventually found to be a faulty console location, the robot symptoms they experienced are not possible if the robot was being E-Stopped intermittently. If that was occurring, their RSL would be solid, then go to a slow blink, then solid. If it was an intermittent radio communication issue, the RSL would have gone into a fast-blink mode if the bridge lost contact, then come back solid once regained. I spoke with 1503 immediately following that match, and their drivers agreed that the RSL was doing precisely as I explained above. We then powered up their robot, and showed them the process the RSL light goes through after a reboot. While the robot was on, I showed them what would happen if the radio modem power/ethernet was pulled loose/plugged back in, and the process was also as described above. They seemed satisfied that the symptoms of their robot out on the field matched a poweroff/poweron rather than an E-Stop.

To the robot, the E-Stop button is a disable/enable condition no different than using the dongle normally attached to the competition port. This was evident from the match in finals where the faulty E-Stop was diagnosed. Team 188's robot would sit with their RSL light slowly blinking. This indicates a successful link with the Driver Station, either through the field or when tethered. If the E-Stop was rapidly toggled/intermittent, 1503's robot would have been going in/out of enable mode, thus the RSL would be solid/slow blinking.

I regret not having the chance to follow up with 1503 to determine exactly what their situation was once they were in the pits. If anyone from 1503 could contact me/post if you found anything specifically wrong with your robot following that finals match it would be appreciated. I can add your situation to a list of common robot 'gotchas' being compiled.
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Unread 08-03-2009, 23:46
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

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Originally Posted by AndrewMorrison View Post
This year was a big turn around for team 229.

Now this thread is full of congratulations and thank you's, so I feel bad having to lodge the first complaint, but I feel it is necessary.
This entire weekend it seemed like the only thing that mattered to the referees, FTA, and scoring table was staying on time.
They refused (until the very end) to believe that there could be anything wrong with the field. They refused to let 1241 link with the field in one match, and in the same match when the field stopped working with 2-3 seconds left they still almost said that the scores would stand(even though human players kept going because the buzzer never went off). We actually took the rule book to them, and showed them the rule about replaying the match whenever there was a field error. It still took them a 10 minute conference and the stands to start chanting "re-do, re-do" before they finally agreed.
We all know what happened in week one, and all the field errors that went on then, but they completely disregarded that this could even be a possibility. Now I can understand that some problems were because of a jostled wire or some code issue, but they blamed absolutely everything on the teams. It wasn't until the finals when they started to truly acknowledge field problems. After quite a bit of complaints.

Now this is all after the competition has ended, but who knows how many problems actually happened during qualifications? the rankings could have changed, and the outcome could have been completely different. (absolutely no disrespect to the winning alliance, you had a phenomenal alliance).
Speaking for my team, we were all very disappointed in how the field was ran.
Hey guys! Thanks again for all teams for coming to FLR and congrats to all the teams. You all did a fantastic job. I would also like to comment on some of the issues that were mentioned.

Whenever there was a problem with the robot jumping in and out we would always go back to the FTAA computer and scoring table and check it out. With the FMS software that we are using we are always able to monitor the status of a robot. We are able to determine if it is a robot issue or a field issue. The software is very helpful and we had 2 certified FTA there as well as others that were trained on how the system ran. Second of all you should always go to the FTA if you have a question. Whenever you talk to someone on the field that is not an FTA or Head Ref...usually you get unreliable information that is incorrect which leads to more problems. Whenever there was an issue FTA checked it out and told the teams the issue. FTA is not just a random person...they are trained by FIRST on how to take care of the field and how to run the event. We never assumed it was a robot issue right away. We would always check it out first and communicated over the radios what was wrong and then would communicate with the teams.

Some things that I saw throughout the week was bad ports in the Driver Stations, bad wireless gaming adapters (light turned to orange meaning you can try resetting it to factory default settings and go through all the settings and set them again, and if that doesn't work it means it is a bad wireless gaming adapter), power issues (Robot not turning on or power issue of getting power to the wireless gaming adapter), and low batteries. Also please please plug in your wireless gaming adapters back into your CRio and make sure it's in the correct port. I can't tell you how many times this happened and once the field closes in qualification matches you are not allowed back out to fix that problem (You will see this change throughout the regionals depending on how the Ref calls that).

Alright now the issue about rushing teams. I do agree with you Andrew that we may have been rushing teams a little bit too fast. I will definitely bring that up in a follow up call this Monday and take care of that for you man and make sure that it's addressed. On Friday tho, regardless I really think the event ran very smoothly and we didn't have any field problems at all. Thank you teams for listening when to plug in and when to turn your robots on. This made it much easier to get the matches started.

Alright the issue with 1241. They had a issue with getting power to their wireless gaming adapter for one of the matches I believe. During that match was when the audience screen stayed at 1 sec. After that happened, FTA got together with the scoring table and we talked it over. We first talked about what could have happened to have that image freeze on the screen. Then FTA took it into their hands and talked to the refs to see if they had looked at the official clocks on the field to see if those had gone to 0. I remember that team 229 was told we might not replay that match but it was not told by FTA (as I remember). We then got the two alliance captains together to explain the problem. After talking to them we all agreed on replaying the match. Now what took so long after that was we had to determine what happened to the system and make sure that it would not happen again. We called FIRST and they told us to back up the system and restart the FMS software. After that we had to go through all our checks and make sure that they all worked. After making sure it was all up and running we got all the teams ready to go. ( I am sorry that it took so long but we wanted to make sure that we were taking the right steps to ensure this would not happen again). At that time we allowed teams to put new batteries in their robots.

Alright last issue that happened on the field. On the Red alliances side station #2 we did have a bad e-stop switch. Any matches before that were not effected by that though. In matches before that robots were working fine and any issues were to do with robots having power issues or code problems. We determined it was a bad e-stop switch since the robot was in autonomous mode but showed being disabled. After confirming this we changed it out and tested the field to make sure this was working correctly. After that we had no more problems and the event ran smoothly till the end!

I would like to thank all the teams for being patient throughout all of this. I just wanted to clear up some of the stuff as some people got relayed the wrong information. I also want to thank Ellery and Andrew for bringing this stuff up. When you guys give us feedback on the event and any issues you had, we like to make sure that other regional's are told about this so that their events run smoother.

I would like to thank both of our FTA's (Pete and Liz), and especially Liz Smith as this was her first year being FTA. I think she did a fantastic job at running the event regardless of some issues. I would also like to thank all the volunteers that were helping out. They make it possible for the FLR to run! Also I would like to thank John Darr and Karthik for doing an amazing job! We want you guys back for next year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again thank you teams and congrats on all the award winners and regional winners and finalists. Thanks team 340 for all your support and Great job winning the Chairman's regional award. You guys deserve it!

Good Luck to all teams for the rest of season!
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2006 Galileo Division-DIVISION CHAMPION (thanks to 177 and 201)
2006 BattleCry great alliance 1519 and 195.
2006 RCCR hometown champs with 378 and 2567
2007 FLR Innovation in Contols award
2007 Buckeye General Motors Industrial Design Award
2007 Buckeye Finalist with 1038 and 1528
2007 Galileo quarterfinalists with 229 and 191
2008 FLR finalists with 378 and 1551
2008 Buckeye Champs with 1024, 1386, and 2048
2008 Buckeye Motorola Quality Award
2008 IRI Finalists with 1024 , 1625, and 1731

Last edited by Jeremytice : 09-03-2009 at 14:47.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 00:06
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

Congrats to everyone at FLR it was a great regional to watch ( i only saw Saturday). also thanks Karthik for the updates and small chit chats on ustream.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 11:54
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by esquared View Post
1503's Robot Signal light would go fully out, then blink fast, then come solid again. Once they began to try driving again, the RSL would go out, blink fast, then solid again over a period of roughly 30-45 seconds. While they were located at what was eventually found to be a faulty console location, the robot symptoms they experienced are not possible if the robot was being E-Stopped intermittently. If that was occurring, their RSL would be solid, then go to a slow blink, then solid. If it was an intermittent radio communication issue, the RSL would have gone into a fast-blink mode if the bridge lost contact, then come back solid once regained. I spoke with 1503 immediately following that match, and their drivers agreed that the RSL was doing precisely as I explained above. We then powered up their robot, and showed them the process the RSL light goes through after a reboot. While the robot was on, I showed them what would happen if the radio modem power/ethernet was pulled loose/plugged back in, and the process was also as described above. They seemed satisfied that the symptoms of their robot out on the field matched a poweroff/poweron rather than an E-Stop.

To the robot, the E-Stop button is a disable/enable condition no different than using the dongle normally attached to the competition port. This was evident from the match in finals where the faulty E-Stop was diagnosed. Team 188's robot would sit with their RSL light slowly blinking. This indicates a successful link with the Driver Station, either through the field or when tethered. If the E-Stop was rapidly toggled/intermittent, 1503's robot would have been going in/out of enable mode, thus the RSL would be solid/slow blinking.

I regret not having the chance to follow up with 1503 to determine exactly what their situation was once they were in the pits. If anyone from 1503 could contact me/post if you found anything specifically wrong with your robot following that finals match it would be appreciated. I can add your situation to a list of common robot 'gotchas' being compiled.
I'm afraid we found nothing. We checked every terminal and every wire from the battery all the way to the cRIO. We then tethered up and drove the robot around (with the same battery); it worked fine. We rammed it repeatedly into a wall to see if there were any loose connections to dislodge; nothing. We always run electrical checks between matches, and we always zip-tie our battery connectors, and we didn't experience a single electrical problem at FLR up to that point. I guess I don't believe in coincidences...
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Last edited by Pat Fairbank : 09-03-2009 at 11:56.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 12:27
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Fairbank View Post
I'm afraid we found nothing. We checked every terminal and every wire from the battery all the way to the cRIO. We then tethered up and drove the robot around (with the same battery); it worked fine. We rammed it repeatedly into a wall to see if there were any loose connections to dislodge; nothing. We always run electrical checks between matches, and we always zip-tie our battery connectors, and we didn't experience a single electrical problem at FLR up to that point. I guess I don't believe in coincidences...
Pat,
Thanks for the followup. I will add your issue to the list of things to try and reproduce given what we saw on the field with regards to the RSL and the eventual situation with the center console's E-Stop.

If you were able to watch the robot's operation from your position in the audience/driver station, do you agree the Robot Signal Light was behaving as specified in my post? I'd like to have everyone on the same page regarding robot symptoms to ensure that NI/FIRST have accurate information regarding what happened.

While I'm not privy to the design details of the cRIO or the DS (I'm just another mentor), the only way I know of to remotely restart a cRIO is to issue a 'reboot' command on a console connection to the RIO, given your confidence level in the power system and ability to ram your robot into the wall (understandable after what happened).

While I don't normally believe in coincidences, your bots behavior matched a brownout or reset condition on the cRIO. I did go over the robot's power and data connections with your drive team immediately after the match to try and identify if there was anything loose, possibly anything that was wrong with your bot on the field was fixed when checking the connections. That's a pretty farfetched theory however, as while they were doing that I did not see any sketchy connections
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Unread 09-03-2009, 13:13
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

Everything seemed ok... The only think I'm scratching my head about is the one time our autonomous did not go off.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 13:24
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

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Originally Posted by Coffeeism View Post
Everything seemed ok... The only think I'm scratching my head about is the one time our autonomous did not go off.
Depending on whether all DS's are detected during the initial match setup (before robots are out on the field for the next match), the FMS seems to briefly toggle through Auto-Disable, Auto-Enable, then Auto-Disable as it sets up. This caused a number of teams using both WindRiver and Labview who did not take special precautions to ensure that enabling and disabling in autonomous mode would fully reset their code each time to malfunction.

Specifically in WindRiver, if you do not override StartCompetition() and extend RobotBase instead of SimpleRobot for your main class, it is possible to begin executing code in your Autonomous() function somewhere in the middle, or to be caught in the "while (IsAutonomous() && !IsDisabled()) Wait(.01);" line in StartCompetition. This occurred with both 211 and 229 in the same match, and after they updated their code to cover this case did not experience a problem again.

Teams can test this in the pit by having the DS in Auto-Dis, turn their bot on, then toggle to Auto-En, quickly back to Auto-Dis, then back to Auto-En and verify their program works as expected. Also, teams should verify that after this occurs they correctly enter teleop code after going to Auto-Dis, Teleop-Dis, then Teleop-En. When reproducing this in the pits, 211 malfunctioned exactly the same way as they did in the field. Once updated they drove correctly in auto and teleop.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 14:22
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

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Originally Posted by esquared View Post
Depending on whether all DS's are detected during the initial match setup (before robots are out on the field for the next match), the FMS seems to briefly toggle through Auto-Disable, Auto-Enable, then Auto-Disable as it sets up.
According to FIRST this is not the case. Rather, what is probably happening is:
1. The robot is powered up before the driver station acquires a DSlink (which occurs within a few seconds of plugging in), e.g. before plugging in;
2. The driver station's Auton/Teleop switch is set to Auton;
3. The driver station is plugged in, immediately links to the already powered-up robot and sets Auton-Enable;
4. The driver station acquires a DSlink from the FMS and sets Auton-Disable.

This could be prevented by ensuring that the driver station has a DSlink (it will show FMSMode on the display when it gets it) before powering up the robot. Setting the driver station Auton/Teleop switch to Teleop before plugging in should prevent jumping, but the robot might still get a brief Teleop-Enable if it was powered up before the driver station linked.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 13:52
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

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Originally Posted by esquared View Post
If you were able to watch the robot's operation from your position in the audience/driver station, do you agree the Robot Signal Light was behaving as specified in my post? I'd like to have everyone on the same page regarding robot symptoms to ensure that NI/FIRST have accurate information regarding what happened.
Which match did this problem occur in? I wasn't able to watch the finals, but someone else on 2702 managed to go down and take some HD footage of some of the quarterfinals. I might be able to pass along some footage if I can find this problem occurring in what I have.

Last edited by Bongle : 09-03-2009 at 14:20.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 13:56
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

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Originally Posted by Bongle View Post
Which match did this problem occur in? I wasn't able to watch the finals, but someone else on 2702 managed to go down at take some HD footage of some of the quarterfinals. I might be able to pass along some footage if I can find this problem occurring in what I have.
QF3 Match 2
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Unread 09-03-2009, 14:32
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

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Originally Posted by esquared View Post
QF3 Match 2
I have it, but I only have a stable shot of 1503 and their RSL for 5-10 seconds total throughout the match. The camera man was concentrating on the moving robots, and would only glance at 1503 periodically when they were not moving. If you think it'd be useful, I could edit the 1503 portions tonight.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 14:36
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

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According to FIRST this is not the case.
Thanks for the update here Pete. Anyone reading this thread should be aware of this and ensure your auto and teleop mode code can handle this occurring and not flip out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongle View Post
I have it, but I only have a stable shot of 1503 and their RSL for 5-10 seconds total throughout the match. The camera man was concentrating on the moving robots, and would only glance at 1503 periodically when they were not moving. If you think it'd be useful, I could edit the 1503 portions tonight.
It would absolutely be useful, thank you!
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Unread 09-03-2009, 15:56
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

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It would absolutely be useful, thank you!
Can you PM me with an email? I'll send it once I've got it edited.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 16:41
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Re: 2009 Finger Lakes Regional!!!!

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Originally Posted by esquared View Post
While I don't normally believe in coincidences, your bots behavior matched a brownout or reset condition on the cRIO. I did go over the robot's power and data connections with your drive team immediately after the match to try and identify if there was anything loose, possibly anything that was wrong with your bot on the field was fixed when checking the connections. That's a pretty farfetched theory however, as while they were doing that I did not see any sketchy connections
Thanks for investigating this. I did see that the RSL was out completely when the robot wasn't moving, but I wasn't paying enough attention to see whether it was blinking slow or fast at the other times. The alliance station light was blinking too while the robot wasn't moving, but I suppose that's just an indication of everything not working right.
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