G14 Scenario

[Molten]

I know a similar issue has been discussed in full. Would you score on yourself to prevent a G14? That is why we are not going to discuss that here. We will also not discuss any outcome of this scenario.

However, this thought passed through my mind. You are up against some heavy hitters. They just doubled your score, you see they are about to score on their own alliance. There are 10 seconds left. You could easily go and seperate the two to prevent scoring.

What would you think from the stands? from the winning alliance? from the losing alliance?

This could become a viable strategy especially during the elimination rounds when you will be playing that alliance again and ranking points really don't matter.

To start off, I really don't think I would do this myself. However, I do believe that some might and am just trying to see what others would think of this seemingly overlooked scenario.

[ttldomination]

Hm... You present a good point and a puzzling scenario. But out of all honesty, I think that the drivers/coaches are too emerged into the game to be able to make the call to even score on themselves.

Secondly, if I were that losing team, I honestly wouldn't care, because that wouldn't affect my playing later. If they're already going to win, then kudos to them and they can change that however they wish.

[Greg Peshek]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

Secondly, if I were that losing team, I honestly wouldn't care, because that wouldn't affect my playing later. If they're already going to win, then kudos to them and they can change that however they wish.

However, as the OP points out, if you're in an elimination round it will affect your playing. If you can make sure the G14 goes through in the first game of an elimination round, then you take away one of their super cells.

Honestly, if I were losing in an elim round and my coach pointed out that one of the teams was going to score on their own alliance's trailer, I would try to stop it. In one of the Waterloo regionals, an alliance scored 3 super cells. Now imagine if one the HPs didn't have that super cell - it could have affected the outcome of the match.

I think it's a viable strategy and if you're that losing alliance you'd might as well hedge your bets by making sure they lose that one SC, even if it may not do anything in the next match. It's worth a shot.

I for one though, would be slightly irritated if I was on the winning alliance and someone did that to me during the qualifying rounds. I guess people can cite that it could possibly help them out in the rankings by causing a team to lose in the future, but I think it's kind of a jerk (for lack of a better word) move in the qualifiers.

-Greg

[nahstobor]

Get the win, deal with g14 in your strategy for the next game.

[FoleyEngineer]

We did it last weekend at Detroit in the playoffs. We were ahead by around 90 to 40 and there was only one supercell in play for the opponent with 30 seconds left. None of their robots had any significant balls in their bots and we had super cells waiting to be put into play. Our bot also had 10 to 15 balls in our bot which we could unload in about 3 seconds or so. Seeing the score was already more than double I ran across our alliance and told everyone to stop scoring, drive away from their supercell end of the field, and just spin in circles. We all did it.

Then I watched the field... basically nobody scored from our team or theirs for the next 10 seconds. At 20 seconds their team threw in the super cell and it missed. Now I knew we would be more than double. I told our drivers to dump about 5 cells into our partners trailer to give them 10 more points and kill the double spread. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to tell them to stop spinning so we never got the shot. We ended up winning 102 to 46 (I think) and got penalized the next match.

Besides the overall absurdity of having to think this way, I think the really dumb thing G14 is causing is that for the last 30 seconds of a big playoff match, our whole alliance basically quit doing anything and just sat there. No human players throwing in their balls, no robots doing anything. I ask you this... how entertaining was that for the crowd? What kind of spectator value was that? For basically 25% of the entire match we just "stood there"!

Imagine a basketball game where the last 10 minutes one team just stands on the floor and does nothing until the final buzzer? Does anyone besides me think that is a horrible way to show the world how cool robotics is, make visitors want to join robotics, and show off to your sponsors? Yech!

John

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Greg Peshek

I for one though, would be slightly irritated if I was on the winning alliance and someone did that to me during the qualifying rounds. I guess people can cite that it could possibly help them out in the rankings by causing a team to lose in the future, but I think it's kind of a jerk (for lack of a better word) move in the qualifiers.

-Greg

Interesting position, however, would you feel the same way if your opposition took advantage of a no-show's empty trailer? How about a robot who had mechanical failures during the match and was dead on the field? My team had so much bad luck this weekend with pairs I would go for the breakup in a qualifying match in the hopes of leveling the playing field for someone else.

[Mr. Lim]

You (Team A) and another team (Team B) are tied for 1st seed.

A and B are now playing a match TOGETHER.

For this match, both are up against very weak competition - it should be a blowout.

A's NEXT match is against very weak competition.

B's NEXT match is against very strong competition.

Should A run up the score to intentionally to try and double violate G14? A knows they can handle a double G14 next match, but for B it could cause them to lose their next match.

Does B play defense on their own alliance partner A, if the score starts to get out of hand?

Let's say A's robot is a human loaded robot, or is an empty cell/super cell carrier. Should B's human player refuse to load A's robot to try keep score parity?

[Molten]

Originally Posted by FoleyEngineer

We did it last weekend at Detroit in the playoffs. We were ahead by around 90 to 40 and there was only one supercell in play for the opponent with 30 seconds left. None of their robots had any significant balls in their bots and we had super cells waiting to be put into play. Our bot also had 10 to 15 balls in our bot which we could unload in about 3 seconds or so. Seeing the score was already more than double I ran across our alliance and told everyone to stop scoring, drive away from their supercell end of the field, and just spin in circles. We all did it.

Then I watched the field... basically nobody scored from our team or theirs for the next 10 seconds. At 20 seconds their team threw in the super cell and it missed. Now I knew we would be more than double. I told our drivers to dump about 5 cells into our partners trailer to give them 10 more points and kill the double spread. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to tell them to stop spinning so we never got the shot. We ended up winning 102 to 46 (I think) and got penalized the next match.

Besides the overall absurdity of having to think this way, I think the really dumb thing G14 is causing is that for the last 30 seconds of a big playoff match, our whole alliance basically quit doing anything and just sat there. No human players throwing in their balls, no robots doing anything. I ask you this... how entertaining was that for the crowd? What kind of spectator value was that? For basically 25% of the entire match we just "stood there"!

Imagine a basketball game where the last 10 minutes one team just stands on the floor and does nothing until the final buzzer? Does anyone besides me think that is a horrible way to show the world how cool robotics is, make visitors want to join robotics, and show off to your sponsors? Yech!

John

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

Interesting position, however, would you feel the same way if your opposition took advantage of a no-show's empty trailer? How about a robot who had mechanical failures during the match and was dead on the field? My team had so much bad luck this weekend with pairs I would go for the breakup in a qualifying match in the hopes of leveling the playing field for someone else.

This is the thing I mentioned above to avoid. We are not here to discuss the actual rule of G14. It is there. Deal with it. If you want to change it, take it to the GDC or discuss it in a thread that already discusses this side of it.

On a more relevent note: To slimbojones post. It may or may not be a good choice in that regard. More specificly with alliance picking. If the two teams are both very good and can easily pull off a G14 then they might make an excellent alliance later. If team A wants to be with team B for the eliminations, they should not consider the notion. If they don't want to be on the same team, I could see why it would be a logical consideration. However, regardless of the situation...I don't think I would try this strategy out of personal ethics.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Molten

This is the thing I mentioned above to avoid. We are not here to discuss the actual rule of G14. It is there. Deal with it. If you want to change it, take it to the GDC or discuss it in a thread that already discusses this side of it.

On a more relevent note: To slimbojones post. It may or may not be a good choice in that regard. More specificly with alliance picking. If the two teams are both very good and can easily pull off a G14 then they might make an excellent alliance later. If team A wants to be with team B for the eliminations, they should not consider the notion. If they don't want to be on the same team, I could see why it would be a logical consideration. However, regardless of the situation...I don't think I would try this strategy out of personal ethics.

I thought I was answering your questions when I stated:

I would go for the breakup in a qualifying match in the hopes of leveling the playing field for someone else.

I was just trying to see if folks saw a difference is preventing self scoring and preventing an opponent from scoring on a teammate.

[Molten]

Sorry wilson, I was mainly regarding foley's annoyances within his post.

[EricH]

It's a strategy. I can't say I'd go for it, mainly due to time concerns, but anyone who can do it is welcome to try.

[pathew100]

67 did this in their last match of qualifying at the Lansing District to make sure they didn't get a G14 going into elims.

I'm guessing the real time scores were high enough for both alliances that they were comfortable doing it.

[115inventorsam]

In one of our qualifying matches at SVR, we were paired with 254, and went up against an alliance that had no good scoring bots. We proceeded to pile up a lot of points while barely being scored on. With about 20 seconds left, we were looking at a x3 G14, which 254 did not want. So we had our third partner hold still while we dumped in a load on their trailer. The other alliance even scored a super cell, and in the end, the final score without penalties was 90-49, nowhere near risking a loss.

From this experience, I think that you should only score on yourselves if you're so far ahead and in danger of getting a x3 G14. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind taking the G14 in qualifications.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by 115inventorsam

In one of our qualifying matches at SVR, we were paired with 254, and went up against an alliance that had no good scoring bots. We proceeded to pile up a lot of points while barely being scored on. With about 20 seconds left, we were looking at a x3 G14, which 254 did not want. So we had our third partner hold still while we dumped in a load on their trailer. The other alliance even scored a super cell, and in the end, the final score without penalties was 90-49, nowhere near risking a loss.

From this experience, I think that you should only score on yourselves if you're so far ahead and in danger of getting a x3 G14. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind taking the G14 in qualifications.

Would you have gotten mad if the opposition stopped you from scoring on your third partner? That is more the question of this thread. If they forced the x3 G14 on you, would you get mad or understand it is strategy?

[115inventorsam]

Originally Posted by Molten

Would you have gotten mad if the opposition stopped you from scoring on your third partner? That is more the question of this thread. If they forced the x3 G14 on you, would you get mad or understand it is strategy?

Oh yeah, sorry about being somewhat off topic. I wouldn't be too happy about it I guess. Trying to make the winning team get punished for winning to me is not a strategy I would call if I coached, it just doesn't feel right. Forcing it on the opposing alliance should not be in the strategy book.