[YMTC]: [YMTC] A Precarious Placement

[ChrisH]

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call.
Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

This YMTC is based on a real incident at the Arizona Regional.

Blueabot 3's robot is not up to a match yet, so their trailer stands vacant in front of Redabot 1's Payload Specialist. As Autonomous begins the PS starts pumping moon rocks into the trailer. One of the moon rocks lands on top of the vision target and remains balanced there. The moon rock is obviously completely supported by the trailer and therefore is worth 2 points.

The question: If a Bluabot should bump into the trailer, knocking the moon rock off its precarious perch and onto the floor, should they be penalized for de-scoring? What if they are pushed into the trailer by another robot, red or blue?

When the moon rock balanced, some of us at the Scoring table had a short debate about the outcome, but the moon rock stayed up there for the entire match so the Refs never had to rule on it and we never came to a conclusion either, something about resetting for the next match.

In the absence of a precedent, You Make The Call!

Note for Newbies: YMTC has been a regular feature over the past several years and serves to make people aware of tricky situations in the rules. The remarkable clarity of this year's rules, along with the reduction in the number of possible penalties have caused YMTC to be dormant for most of this season. But when this situation occured, I just could not resist posting it. There are some interesting possibilities here ...

[Elgin Clock]

While this situation certainly falls under a "gray" area of the rules, I would call it as being scored even if it fell off.
The reason, is that once scored, a moon rock can not be de-scored.
(Re: Fallen trailers)
Also, there is no rule that explicitly states the moon rock has to be contained within the pvc pipes on the outside.

SCORED: A GAME PIECE is SCORED when it is fully supported by the TRAILER or other GAME PIECES that have been SCORED.

Supported by the trailer? Yes.

Although, <G07> COULD contradict the ruling about Fallen Trailers& also this scenario, I myself as a Ref would override the statement in <G07> rule in favor of staying under the consensus of the Fallen Trailer rule <G01-B> & say this one is scored as well, even though it fell off & onto the playing field.

<G07> Scores are determined based on the state of the GAME PIECES at the end of the MATCH.
Scores will be assessed after all objects in motion when the arena timer displays zero seconds
come to rest.
A. The final score of a MATCH is the total of points assigned due to SCORED GAME
PIECES, less any assigned PENALTIES.
B. If a TRAILER tips over, the points SCORED for that TRAILER at the time it was tipped
will be preserved for the remainder of the MATCH.

If it fell out, & was scored AGAIN by another robot in another trailer, that would also count in my opinion just as other scored moon rocks that fall out of a Fallen Trailer would count... or would they??

If a Bluabot should bump into the trailer, knocking the moon rock off its precarious perch and onto the floor, should they be penalized for de-scoring?

No.

What if they are pushed into the trailer by another robot, red or blue?

No.

Of course, this is all my opinion, but I believe this is all following the spirit of the game.

Btw, did anyone get a pic of it sitting on top of the trailer?

[EricH]

On the contrary, it is not a descore. <G25.1> says:

<G25.1> De-scoring GAME PIECES – Once a GAME PIECE has been SCORED, it may not be intentionally de-scored (e.g. removed from the TRAILER). De-scoring a GAME PIECE will cause a PENALTY to be assigned. At the end of the match, any intentionally de-scored GAME PIECES will be considered SCORED as originally placed. GAME PIECES that are knocked free from tenuous placements as a result of normal game interactions (e.g. a GAME PIECE on top of a pile of MOON ROCKS that completely fill a TRAILER falls off when the TRAILER is bumped) will not be penalized.

I would call the top of the target a tenuous placement; a swift hit to the trailer to move it would easily cause the moon rock to fall, whether into the trailer or not would depend on physics. No penalty.

[The Lucas]

This happened to us in Philly (QF4-2 I think). A moon rock settled on top of our target with a few secs left in the match. Our driver reacted quickly and drove the trailer backwards into the side wall. The moon flew off the target and away from the trailer. Time expired, the Moon Rock was not scored and no penalty was assigned. Had the Moon Rock stayed, it would have been scored.
It would not have changed the outcome even of it counted and a penalty was assigned.

I agree with Eric about tenuous placement, no penalty.

[Chris is me]

I don't see how this is any different than a ball being thrown in a full trailer. There's really no question that a ball on the top of a goal is in a "tenuous placement" (after all, it's happened in a tiny percentage of games), and thus if it gets knocked off it's not a descoring penalty. It's so tenuous that turning sharply will make it fall.

It seems like the textbook "tenuous position" is on top of the post.

On a related note, I wanna see a Supercell count while resting on top of a post.

[bduddy]

There should not be, and I don't believe there is, a penalty for inadvertent actions like this. Also, there will be no score-there was a little conversation about something like this at St. Louis, although it never actually happened.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

<G25.1> De-scoring GAME PIECES – Once a GAME PIECE has been SCORED, it may not be intentionally de-scored (e.g. removed from the TRAILER). De-scoring a GAME PIECE will cause a PENALTY to be assigned. At the end of the match, any intentionally de-scored GAME PIECES will be considered SCORED as originally placed. GAME PIECES that are knocked free from tenuous placements as a result of normal game interactions (e.g. a GAME PIECE on top of a pile of MOON ROCKS that completely fill a TRAILER falls off when the TRAILER is bumped) will not be penalized.

1> Because the teams are not 'intentionally' de-scoreing and the ball leaves it's trailer due to it's tenuous placement, there is no penalty.

G07> Scores are determined based on the state of the GAME PIECES at the end of the MATCH.
Scores will be assessed after all objects in motion when the arena timer displays zero seconds come to rest.

2> Because the ball is not in the trailer at the end of the match, it is not scored.

JMHO

[EricH]

No, it counts. It is fully supported by the trailer. See the definition of SCORED. The trailer does include the vision target.

By the definition you're using (in the trailer), any moon rock that was on top of a pile of balls in the trailer to the point that it was completely outside the poles would not be scored.

So, here's my scoring analysis:
On the pole: scored, but in a tenuous position.
Knocked off the top of the pole during a match: no longer scored, but no descoring penalty due to tenuous position invoking <G25.1>.

[Donut]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

Btw, did anyone get a pic of it sitting on top of the trailer?

Why yes, we did

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/33521?

[Carol]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

This happened to us in Philly (QF4-2 I think). A moon rock settled on top of our target with a few secs left in the match. Our driver reacted quickly and drove the trailer backwards into the side wall. The moon flew off the target and away from the trailer. Time expired, the Moon Rock was not scored and no penalty was assigned. Had the Moon Rock stayed, it would have been scored.
It would not have changed the outcome even of it counted and a penalty was assigned.

I agree with Eric about tenuous placement, no penalty.

Found a picture of this play at Philly. I love the volunteers' reactions:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/33561