Starting a Mostly student run FRC team

[Molten]

Originally Posted by EricH

You're talking fundraising at least $10K, per year.

Ok, I know I've debated this point with you before Eric so I'm not going to do it again. I just want to state that it is quite possible for a team to be ran on much less then $10K per year. Sure, you may not be as big or famous as 330, but you will still get relatively the same experience.

And no, I'm not saying that 330 is buying fame or any other ludicrous comment that may be misconstrued from the above statement.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Molten

Ok, I know I've debated this point with you before Eric so I'm not going to do it again. I just want to state that it is quite possible for a team to be ran on much less then $10K per year. Sure, you may not be as big or famous as 330, but you will still get relatively the same experience.

And no, I'm not saying that 330 is buying fame or any other ludicrous comment that may be misconstrued from the above statement.

For an FRC team based at the location being discussed at the time (which is a ways from the nearest regional), you need at least $1K for hotel, unless you get a really good rate, plus $6K entry, plus bus rental for Wednesday night through Sunday AM (may be negotiable), plus your parts and tools. Figure $10K to cover all of it. We were also discussing VRC/FTC/FRC comparison in costs, which tends to make you like round numbers.

Possible? Yes, GIVEN that you are close enough to not stay in a hotel at your one regional and given that you stick with a kit frame, you could do it with $6K-$7K. If either is not true, then $10K is a much better estimate. It's also a nice round number, which makes it nice for calculations.

And I will thank you to retract your statement that 330 is a big team. They aren't. 15 students, or less. During my years on the team, 10 was pretty standard.

[laurenlacy]

As a high school student I saw my team go from being mostly student run to having a high level of mentor involvement. My main question for you would be are you absolutely, 100% certain that that is what you want?

In our "go it alone" days travel was overwhelming. As a team member I was frustrated by a number of things our captain did, and didn't have an adult to turn to for guidance. Members weren't being used to their full potential because the team suffered from the cliquishness that tends to dog high school students despite their best intentions. Many students felt left out. The team seemed to exist on a day by day basis. We were just a bunch of kids building a robot, and honestly that's something anyone anywhere can do.

I see a lot of teams that are student run, and I see a lot of similar experiences. Yes they should be proud of their accomplishments but I feel like you are going to be missing out on a big piece of FIRST... the Inspiration piece. I realize that there are many reasons a team is run by students, but to me it's so amazing to be able to go back and talk to my former mentors, get guidance and career advice. Some of our students have gotten jobs at our mentors' companies, and all in all it's just great to have mentors. Some of my mentors have truly changed my life, and shaped who I am today in all the right ways.

To that end I would first echo comments above--go to your sponsor, to potential sponsors--try to recruit mentors from them. Ask another more established team in your area to help. My high school team went to our principal sponsor and did a mentorship solicitation presentation to get mentors for other teams and let people working at that company know that FIRST was out there... and it worked! The great thing about the FIRST community is that whenever you seek help there are hundreds of willing folks that can get you where you need to be. It could be an opportunity to get more sponsors!

If you are determined to go it alone, yes, it can be done. But I think it's an uphill battle--and a battle that I don't really see worth fighting. I would strongly encourage you to find mentors--you have the passion, you have the noble intentions, don't be afraid to find someone who can help you realize your dreams and then push you beyond them.

[neoshaakti]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

That's kinda what I'm trying to prevent though...You don't have to make things harder for yourself, I'm just trying to make it easier.

Working hard and it still being worth it is one thing, but that doesn't mean something that isn't as hard (by involving teachers and parents) is not worth it. If you are able to get the help that you deserve then why not take advantage of it rather than struggling? And as Eric said, and I can vouch that neoshaakti feels the same way*, students move on and without a solid foundation of adults (even parents), a team cannot last as long as it could with those parents. I appluad your team Libby for taking charge of your team, however.

I know where you are coming from though.

*2554 is going through this right now

Students are seriously like variables when it comes to running a team, you need the constant of adult mentors or parents.

Yeah Stogi is right here. Students come and go, but mentors can be there forever. Look at some of the sports teams in your school...how many times does your school get a new tennis coach?

And yeah, I have been in a similar position where I managed TIMS, wrote the NASA grant, marketed/ fundraised, wrote sponsorship letters using the voice of my coach, etc etc
Transitioning power is proving to be difficult, because like Eric said...what happens when that one kid who plays coach leaves?

I think you'll be fine, right now you might be freaking out a little and thinking that hitting the reset button is your best option.

I think that some compelling opinions have been stated. Look into your other options man...for your sake

Worst come to worst, go to your guidance counselor haha
(not a bad idea actually)

-Neel

[Molten]

Originally Posted by EricH

And I will thank you to retract your statement that 330 is a big team. They aren't. 15 students, or less. During my years on the team, 10 was pretty standard.

Consider that part retracted. Though, in number of students it is small. But the name is big. It may just be that your bot is awesome this year, or that your team does a ton with community, or something completely different...but I've sure heard 330/Beachbots a lot this year. I really meant know offense in my words earlier.

Also, I would agree with the 6K-7K estimate to being more reasonable. Though, this can be done without a kitbot frame. Just depends on if you already have most of the tools.(or access to them) I think that most of the tools you will need for building a bot are pretty available be it through a school or a company. I'm sure someone will let you use their tools if you explain everything.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Jmasta

I dont plan on using the same number, my main plan is to fund raise and get sponsors so the team will have enough money for the Registration fee and tools and such. The main reason I want to start a student-run team is that, even though that the team is continuing over at another school, there are no experience ppl there that would actually care about robotics enough to be a good coach. As for sponsorship, my team had only 1 sponsor, so it doesnt matter.

There is a large group of potential engineering mentors and coaches right on your doorstep. Norfolk/Portsmouth/Chesapeake is one of the epicenters for naval activity in the country, and has plenty of tech-related companies because of it.
Not only is their your current sponsor, Norfolk Naval Shipyard, but there are plenty of others. BAE, Metro Machine, Lyon Shipyard, W3 Marine, Little Creek, Old Dominion University, etc.

You're sitting on a wealth of experienced engineering and technical knowledge, and it would be foolish to waste it.

[thefro526]

You can start a Mostly Student run FRC team. It's been done before with varying degrees of success.

Honestly, I wouldn't do it. Student run teams seem awesome, until you realize that most students can't even make a good decision on what to eat for breakfast. I come from a team that Has 3 primary mentors, two of which are semi-technical and the third is a Non-Technical Mentor who does 99% of the paperwork. Other than that our 50 Student team is primarily student run.

There's some teams that do excellent Student run programs, but I've noticed that they're very hot and cold. Yes, there have been student run teams that have done well a year hear and at an off-season there but very few of these teams have the consistency of a well-run adult team. Yeah, team XXXX might have had an awesome season in 200X but, what about 20XX, or 200X? Usually the answer ends up being "We had a great group of kids". Out of all of the Student run Teams I have met, I've only met one that consistently excels year after year, and that's team 11. It's a hard thing to do.

For example I'll use my own team. We, Team 816, were a complete unknown until 2008. Before then we were a Mid to Low range team who more often then not was packing their crate at Lunch time on Saturday. In the 2008 Season we had a number of people from the class of 2009 step up and make some changes. They re-did a lot of things, and took a completely new approach to the entire team. So in this Season and the Last we've become what some would consider a High Level Team but here's the secret, 50% of our team is Graduating this year. Who knows what will become of 816 after they leave, it's hard to run a team when you're getting a new group of leaders every few years.

If you want to start a student run team then do it. But remember, there's a team after you leave.

[gorrilla]

Originally Posted by thefro526

If you want to start a student run team then do it. But remember, there's a team after you leave.

although having mentors is good.....you dont HAVE to HAVE them...
It's just easier to get everything done

as for graduating students.....all but 2 of 1557's students are underclassmen, and the two that graduated last year came back......we handle basically everything we can in running the team(meeting times,schedules..etc..) but our mentors some of the stuff too(community contacts, sposors,recruting new mentors..etc... )....pretty much..it'd be hard without them...

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by neoshaakti

Well, a coach can be an adult who supervises and is a liaison between your team and the school. They do not necessarily need experience with robots, but already (usually) posses the experience they need to keep kids focused and organized.
That is the way our team works; we have a clearly defined difference between a coach and a mentor. A mentor would be more inclined toward training new students and helping the team build the robot, while the coach would make sure that we could meet in school and would help fundraise/look for sponsors.

I cannot agree with this more. I know one of our primary struggles this year on 397 was not in getting the mentors to do a robot but to manage to hold everything else together, this is where you really need a great mentor.

Work WITH your school to continue an existing FRC team rather than up and starting a new one, the last thing FRC needs is teams failing. Too often they stress to start new teams, start new teams. Frankly I am sick of hearing it, the support structure does not exist to SUSTAIN teams.

As for student run teams, student run teams do not belong in FIRST. Im going to come out and finally say it, FIRST is not about students building the robots, it is about industry professionals showing kids what they do, about exposing them to new ideas. A bunch of kids building in a garage with hand tools doesnt inspire the same way as seeing a cnc mill take a part from the computer screen to the real world.

My advice to you, get some mentors, get some industry sponsors, instead of running from a problem solve it.

[gorrilla]

'ere's one for you......

what about asking other local teams to help out?......

[bigbeezy]

My $0.02? Listen to what Dave said during kickoff. Pretty much sums it up.

[Bomberofdoom]

Just for the future knowledge,

What exactly does a single mentor/adult/parent/teacher needs or should take care of for a team, and that being the basic reason why a mentor is needed?

[nlknauss]

After having read through the majority of the posts here, it's safe to say that everyone here is giving good sound advice on how to proceed. It is possible to have a "student run" team, but you have too figure out what you mean by student run when it comes down to team and financial management and whether or not your student leadership has the means to handle payments, travel plans, and robot construction.

I really have to emphasize that along with your corporate/sponsor relations it is also extremely important to maintain a strong relationship with your school. Your school already has many resources that you can tap into that will allow your robotics team to continue well into the future when it comes to accounts, transportation, and insurance. If you feel as though your school doesn't get it, schedule a meeting with your principal, contact your senior mentor or another team in the area to bring into the meeting, and sell it to them. Pull some video off the web, print up some "FIRST abouts", and bring the teacher in with you. That teacher may not want to continue with your team, but they may be able to help you transition to another teacher or mentor for the future. I've experienced this in the past, it stinks to cut off or lose the majority of your experience almost instantaneously. Try to transition with what's already in place and don't start over. Greatness and experience is built upon.