2009 Greater Toronto Regional

[dani190]

yea it was truly saddening... I thought we were very GP at least we did try... I also didn't really understand the booing though for sure... As Kate said that was really un GP and really unexpected...

But on another note, thanks to teams 2056 and 1114 for a great win...

See you guys in Atlanta!

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Kate Mosley

I'm almost speechless right now. You're seriously accusing a WFFA winner, former head referee at many regionals and one of the people with the most integrity I have ever met of being biased? He was not even supposed to volunteer this weekend, and graciously stepped in, leaving his team shorthanded, when one of the referees fell ill. This is the person you're accusing of being biased?

In his defense, he has a point. People are biased. Everyone. As much as you can deny it or wish it doesn't exist, being unconciously biased happens. I don't think 1075Guy is saying he conciously decided to help out 1114 and the red alliance. Learning that he was once on 188, maybe he even overcompensated his bias. I'm not saying I agree with 1075Guy's decision to accuse someone on a public forum without knowing all the facts, though.

Anyway, congrats to the winners and 1114 for the RCA.

EDIT: Just to clarify my post, I wasn't at the event nor do I know who any of the refs or other volunteers were. Just so people don't misunderstand my post, I'm not saying the refs were biased or not, just pointing out that people, in general, are biased.

[Pat Fairbank]

Here are some photos I took at GTR 2009.

[Jonathan Norris]

Wow... What an event!! I am so supremely proud of how the rookie students on my team performed this weekend. From the moment they walked into the pits on Thursday they were not phased for one second by the competition, they competed like we've been doing this for 10 years. They showed the judges all the hard work they've done throughout the season, and showed them that they get FIRST. I am very proud of for them to receive the Rookie All-Star Award, and get the chance to compete in Atlanta. Thanks again to our alliance partners 1219 and 2166, you two were a pleasure to work with.

To a team that has been doing this for 10 years, 610... you guys are back!! To see Crescent back in the finals was the second best moment of my day. You really built an awesome robot and Josh did you ever know how to drive it, its the best driven robot i've seen all year. Too bad you aren't going to ATL, probably one of the best robots not going to Atlanta this year.

About what went down in the finals, for those who say the booing wasn't warranted... 188, 610, and 1305 had just pulled a big upset in the first match and emotions were running high. Then the silliness happens (don't know what else to call it...) of not letting 188 on the field for the second match when 610 didn't have a front roller.. boo's are going to fly. There should have been better communication on all fronts and that situation should never have happened. Congrats to the alliance for putting up a great fight in the third match, you almost had it.

1114... such a well deserved Chairman's award, just look at the quality of teams you have helped start: 1503, 2056, 2166, and now us 2809. That doesn't mention the million other things you have done for the FIRST community, you deserve a strong consideration for Championship Chairman's this year, I know first hand how much you deserve it.

To the rest of the Canadian teams and everyone involved with the event, I was most impressed this weekend with the comradery between the teams. The mutual respect we have for one another has really grown over the last couple years into a really strong community. I look forward to seeing a lot of you again in Atlanta.

[Edit] I want to make it clear that I am not supporting the booing, but trying to explain why in a situation like this it is difficult to avoid. Yes in a perfect GP world the booing would never have happened, but we can take comfort that it didn't last for more then a couple seconds before people realized it was wrong. The situation was quickly explained to the crowd by Karthik that dampened the flames. Thank you to Sawn for explaining in detail why that situation happened. [/Edit]

[Kate00]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

About what went down in the finals, for those who say the booing wasn't warranted... 188, 610, and 1305 had just pulled a big upset in the first match and emotions were running high. Then the silliness happens (don't know what else to call it...) of not letting 188 on the field for the second match when 610 didn't have a front roller.. boo's are going to fly. There should have been better communication on all fronts and that situation should never have happened. Congrats to the alliance for putting up a great fight in the third match, you almost had it.

188 had ample warning that their timeout was about to expire. There was a countdown going on a screen in clear sight of their pit. They were warned three minutes before. They were warned one minute before. They had multiple queuers, field staff and even referees telling them they had to be on the field [edit]before their timeout ran out[/edit] for the last 60 seconds of their timeout. Teams not being allowed on the field during elims has happened before at GTR, with 188 being involved in the match.

What I really take issue with is your comment that booing was to be expected. I thought that this was a program which took pride in never booing anyone, being supportive and gracious, being the opposite to what minor league sports are devolving into today.

I dont think that it's necessary that 'boos are going to fly.' Teams who truly understand gracious professionalism and have read the rules should never boo a call ever - especially not a legitimate one. It flies in the face of what I thought this program was supposed to be. We're talking about a volunteer who has dedicated a good chunk of his time to this program, getting booed for enforcing the rules. In my mind, that is completely inappropriate.

[dani190]

Originally Posted by johnnyo

Deleted per request from johnnyo

first who are you? mind identifying your self a bit? And they missed it by a few seconds... they missed it. If we dont have rules what do we have?

Also you come here and say you booed? you should be ashamed of your self... If you know anything about first it is that we are GP to each other.

[AndyB]

I wasn't at Toronto this weekend. Nor did I see what happened. But in my opinion, this has gotten blown a bit out of proportion. Don't rip people apart for having opinions around here. 1075 guy clearly did everything he could to explain that he wasn't accusing, just bringing up the idea. If he didn't know, then he has the right to inquire. He didn't come out and say "I bet it was because of this..." or "Is it really a coincidence that...?". It possibly wasn't something that needed to be brought to the public eye, but he should be respected none the less.

Johnnyo does raise some interesting points. Is there a reason to be upset with the situation? yes. Is there favoritism in the pits? yes, at any regional. He wasn't saying that everything was rigged, just that there is favoritism. I have no doubt that teams like 188 and 1114 see lots of attention; Largely because they are responsible for the existence of many of the teams in that same pit.

The booing is an interesting issue. It sucks that they missed the match by such a close margin. But fair is fair. It sucks. The people in the stands want to see the best alliance win. I'm a little disappointed that it happened... because in the end, the people running the show are making decisions that they think are right and fair. It makes the opposing alliance look like bad guys as well. There isn't anything to change about it, it happened. There is a little of spirit at an FRC event and we all have times where we make poor decisions or put our emotions a little too far out on our sleeves. Please be respecting of other people. It's okay to point out your disagreements, but in the end, if you are trying to make them feel like crap, you aren't doing anyone any good.

[Bochek]

Having seen everything that happened in the Finals, can anyone comment on what happened between match 2 and match 3, I noticed the head ref talking to the #1 seed alliance captain, then to the mentor of 2056.

Was the #3 seed asking to use the #1 seeds timeout? Because that's what it looked like from the stands. Granted, its pure speculation


The other thing I wanted to comment on, was the, dare i say odd, way that 2056 asked 1114 to be their alliance partners, While not rude, our out of line by anyway, it seemed quite odd to ask a team to join their alliance in that manner.

- Bochek

[dani190]

yea i can comment on that. I believe that was on the field... Basically the head ref was telling us that we weren't allowed to have first winning advantage i think it was... Basically waiting for the other teams to place robots so we can see were we place...

[Racer26]

As some people have come to my defense to say, I wasn't TRYING to say that I think the head ref, or any of the refs WERE displaying a bias. I was trying to bring up the issue that refs who have ties to teams are going to have a really hard time being truly unbiased. They are likely to either a) favor their team(s) or b) be unfairly HARD on their team(s) for fear that they would be accused of favoring their team(s).

Do I think either is what happened in this case? I don't know. Maybe, but that's not really what's important. The bigger question is, is there anything we can do to avoid having refs with ties to teams? I don't think so. The problem is that few people outside of FRC mentors/alums/etc fully understand the dynamic of an FRC match, and few would know the games as intimately. I think having refs who have no ties to an FRC team (and therefore likely know very little about the program) would lead to WORSE reffing than the potentially biased reffing from team-affiliated refs.

I think everyones emotions are a little raw on the issue because the regional could have played out VERY differently if that match had been run with 188 on the field, OR if 188 succeeded in their plan to make the #1 alliance triple their score. The blue alliance only lost the regional by 7 points. The super cell scored by 1114/2056/2185 made the difference.

Also please note: I am an individual. Please do NOT affiliate my views with any team(s) I might be affiliated with.

[Koko Ed]

What happened in match two will live down in FIRST history to be sure and that's a shame because what happened in match one and three were two of the best matches I have seen this year in FIRST. Both alliances gave it their all and did everything strategically and ability wise to give the audience one amazing show. I'm still not 100% sure if I like this game or not (which is amazing considering I have been at a regional every week. Perhaps my lack of commitment to it is a sign I don't) but like every year even crappy games look great when played well by top level teams.
If that's the case then next week is gonna be amazing in Michigan(can we skip the practice and just let them do extra matches instead?).

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Kate Mosley

They had multiple queuers, field staff and even referees telling them they had to be on the field for the last 60 seconds of their timeout.

I am curious where this "rule" comes from? Is it in the rules and I'm missing it? Or perhaps the Q&A?

EDIT: As soon as I posted I realized I may have read this comment wrong. If it is intended that they had to be on the field a the 5 minute mark of their timeout I would be interested in seeing the source of that ruling. If it is intended that for the last 60 sec. of their timeout people were telling them to get on the field and they didn't make it then nevermind.

[colin340]

ok here i go

bias- there was none they were running a tight ship at GTR they, yes at some other regional they would have waited, but as i see it thats the way things should be done other wise things could get mega unfair and sloppy.i see it as a good, fair yet very hard decision

the booing- is was wrong bottom line very but the reason it got so bad is that is spread and people were booing before they could think about what they were doing. people are not naturally GP it take time and practice to hold back and not go along with the crowd a few people prolly started it and it just spread.

I was disappointed in the conduct of a team in the in the finals. Teams-if you have people who can't control them self's in the heat of the moment you need to be able to live with the damage they might do to your team rep!! or find a way too help them deal with the stress!!

[JVN]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

I can't help but wonder... *puts on flame shield* if there wasnt at least a LITTLE bit of bias in the decision. 1114/2056/2185 were down a match, and at least 1, and i think more than 1 of the referees have ties to 1114.

If asked to highlight individuals within FIRST who define the word "integrity" I would immediately mention two names. One of those names is the person you are referencing. I can vouch that he is of the highest character, as I'm sure can hundreds of others.

Your allegations are so off base they are just humiliating. Just absolutely ridiculous.

No flame shield needed... you're just flat out 100% wrong.

[d.courtney]

Originally Posted by Kate Mosley

What I really take issue with is your comment that booing was to be expected. I thought that this was a program which took pride in never booing anyone, being supportive and gracious, being the opposite to what minor league sports are devolving into today.

I dont think that it's necessary that 'boos are going to fly.' Teams who truly understand gracious professionalism and have read the rules should never boo a call ever - especially not a legitimate one. It flies in the face of what I thought this program was supposed to be. We're talking about a volunteer who has dedicated a good chunk of his time to this program, getting booed for enforcing the rules. In my mind, that is completely inappropriate.

I don't think Jonathan ever said he agreed with the booing, as far as I can tell he was explaining why it should only be expected given the circumstances. Do the circumstances make it right? No. I agree with him in the respect that when emotions run high and in the heat of the competition peoples judgement can be clouded, and to expect that 100% of the time, all teams are going to respond in a gracious manner is unrealistic. Gracious Professionalism is a fantastic standard to strive for and it is something that sets FIRST aside from minor league sports but we are human. No matter how much we all try we will continually fall short of every standard we set for ourselves, but that doesn't make the standard useless. We should be forgiving when the rare circumstances like this arise not condemn those involved in the booing.
Like Jonathan also said I believe that this was preventable, but I feel it was preventable for a different reason. I think it was preventable from the view point that FIRST needs to be consistent with this rule across regionals. I have watched many regionals, and attended many as well, and the difference to how the referees address the issue is vast. At some regionals it seems as long as if teams are making their way to the field when the buzzer goes they are ok. Other regionals it looks like the decision is in the opposing alliance's hands, where they are asked if they are willing to allow the robot unto the field or if they are willing to use their time out. And then there are regionals where like GTR if your robot is not on the field at the time of the buzzer, to bad. Its a hard to decide what the best rule would be, but the importance isn't so much where the line is drawn but rather that it is a consistent rule. Also if the rule was explained to the audience when someone takes a time out then there would not be booing in these cases (or at least much less booing).