Michigan rankings

[Springman]

It seems to me that there should be some automatic admittance into the state championship for district winners. It is unfortunate that team 216 may not even get a chance to play at the state level after ranking 2nd in the qualifications and captained their team to the West Michigan district championship. I say this because their team managed to beat up on us pretty well in the finals. I understand that this was there third event, and their points earned do not count in the current setup, but I think that all winning alliance captians at a minimum should be eligible at the state level. Anyone else have thoughts on this one?

[MishraArtificer]

Looks like 240 is waaaaaay out of the lineup for GLR (cough, cough) States...I wonder if they'll let me in anyway?

[GVDrummer]

Originally Posted by Springman

It seems to me that there should be some automatic admittance into the state championship for district winners. It is unfortunate that team 216 may not even get a chance to play at the state level after ranking 2nd in the qualifications and captained their team to the West Michigan district championship. I say this because their team managed to beat up on us pretty well in the finals. I understand that this was there third event, and their points earned do not count in the current setup, but I think that all winning alliance captians at a minimum should be eligible at the state level. Anyone else have thoughts on this one?

I agree with you Springman, 216 had a rough time up in traverse city for it being their first competition, every single one of the students was new to the program including the coaches so they had no idea what to expect.

When you look at 216's record and their improvements I would say they are the most improved team out there. Here is the information that backs this up: http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/team/216

Traverse City: (5-7-0)

Lansing: (11-7-0) Regional Finalists ~ Thanks 1 and 245!!

West Michigan: (16-2-0) #2 Seed, Regional Champions ~ Thanks 1918 and 1254!!

Over the weeks 216 used the 8 hour work times to redesign and rebuild there robot and they did an amazing job. From scoring 3-4 cells per round in Traverse City to on 20+ cells in the finals at West Michigan.

[drhall]

I have to agree with your opinion on Regional Winners getting an automatic placement. It will be tough watching 85-1918-245-1-33-703 plus all the others and wishing we were there.
Also thanks again to 1918 & 1245 for their awesome play!!!
Dan

[Alex Dinsmoor]

I personally think that regional winners should not get an automatic invite to states. The point of the point system was to give each team a fair chance at playing at states. This point system would almost guarantee a spot at states for any team who wins a competition.

Winners
Alliance Captain and First Pick 30
Second Pick 24

If you were on the winning alliance (even if you were 2nd pick), you would still get 24 points; more than half of what it takes to get to states. If you were able to win 8 matches in the qualifications at your two events you would have made it in. And chances are if you win one, you will do very good in your other events.

The point system celebrates consistency in playing. If FiM would allow teams to count their third event win, then how would the team who gets bumped out of going to states feel? Just because team X has enough money to go to three events, means they get to go because they won on their third event? You need to think of the teams on the bubble, and how they would feel.

I know that my team does not have the funding (or the time) to go to three events. If a team from below us in the rankings got to go because they got lucky and got picked third (or earned their way), I would feel pretty upset.

Here is something for you to think about also: What happens if a team is on their third event and becomes a backup robot and then goes on to win the event all because of a robot failure?

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Alex Dinsmoor

I personally think that regional winners should not get an automatic invite to states. The point of the point system was to give each team a fair chance at playing at states. This point system would almost guarantee a spot at states for any team who wins a competition.

I agree with you that the 3rd (or 4th or 5th) district a team competes in shouldn't count towards qualifying for state, but I don't think it is right that a team like 858, who won Lansing, not be qualified for state competition. Yes they were the 24th pick and will most likely still go (as they are 66th), but I just don't think it is right.

Other than that, I'm wondering from people that know the teams well, are the best 64 teams going? Or are the rankings skewed in some way?

[Wayne TenBrink]

I had already posted my long winded opinion on the FIM thread before seeing this one. I'll summarize it again here by saying that I really hope to see 216 & 858 at State.

[chinckley]

Originally Posted by drhall

I have to agree with your opinion on Regional Winners getting an automatic placement. It will be tough watching 85-1918-245-1-33-703 plus all the others and wishing we were there.
Also thanks again to 1918 & 1254 for their awesome play!!!
Dan

Thanks for asking us. We had a great time and hope to be at States. We will know tomorrow morning. We hope you are there too.

[GaryVoshol]

When the District concept was presented, there were 16 geographical districts defined in Michigan. It was recognized that with 60-odd places at EMU - the biggest event venue in the state - that the traditional method of 6 teams qualifying to Atlanta wouldn't work for advancement to the State Championship - as soon as we got to 10 district events, there wouldn't be any "wildcard" spots open for any point structure.

With an increase in teams next year similar to what happened this year, we will have to have an 8th district event. Depending on how many teams register, there will again be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 open spots for teams to attend a 3rd event. Of course the economy could change everything.

Teams knew going in that the third event would not count toward state qualification. If a team wanted to compete in Week 5 and have that event count, they had to go to only 2 events. Just like traditional regionals are apportioned through the season so the field equipment and volunteers can be rotated, so with districts. Somebody has to be first and somebody has to be last. Often site restrictions and availability dictate when an event can be run - either it has to be a certain week or you won't get that site.

I applaud 216 for the great strides made this season. Unfortunately it just didn't work out for them and other teams that are just below the bubble, unless now some other teams have the even greater misfortune to not be able to afford State.

I think the district concept has pretty much proven itself; the wonderful things I expect to see next weekend will just confirm that. Sure, there are tweaks that need to be made. Every team should submit a thorough and thoughtful evaluation. The organizing committees need to know how to make even better events next year. And the rest of FIRST needs to know whether and how to implement more district structures around the country.

[Alex Dinsmoor]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

I agree with you that the 3rd (or 4th or 5th) district a team competes in shouldn't count towards qualifying for state, but I don't think it is right that a team like 858, who won Lansing, not be qualified for state competition. Yes they were the 24th pick and will most likely still go (as they are 66th), but I just don't think it is right.

Other than that, I'm wondering from people that know the teams well, are the best 64 teams going? Or are the rankings skewed in some way?

I do agree that if you win one of your first two events you should get to go. 858 did really good at lansing, and after seeing their poor luck at Traverse, they definitely should have gone.

And I'm also an expert on teams I have gone to and scouted at 4 events, so I think I know my stuff.

Looking at teams that are just below the cut, I'm sad to see some good teams didn't make it. Teams like 3115 (amazing rookie team), 1189 (has lots of potential), 3096 (really high on my scouting list), 2960 (I mean they were amazing at Troy), 2719 (great rookie team that were great opponents at Detroit) and 2337 (seeing as their batteries are secure ).

3115 teamed up with 2719 (and 2612) in the QFs at Detroit, and were a great alliance to play against. They were good teams, and I wish to see them all at States (I know I will with 2612 ).

Now I don't see any teams that shouldn't be going, but I do feel that some are ranked to high for their performance. I know that many teams have been "Carried" to their rank, and some should be significantly lower in the rankings then they are. And I'm not going to name any of the "Carried" teams because that isn't a demonstration of GP.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Alex Dinsmoor

...
I know that many teams have been "Carried" to their rank, and some should be significantly lower in the rankings then they are. And I'm not going to name any of the "Carried" teams because that isn't a demonstration of GP.

There is no need to name them, they/we already know. What would be a true demonstration of GP would be for those teams to step aside and let the more deserving teams in.

The carried team phenomenon is bound to happen with the top eight in-picking and the serpentine draft. When a powerhouse number one picks another powerhouse in the top eight, then best of what’s left after fourteen more picks has a pretty good chance of getting carried on to a major point bonanza.

Maybe next year, they should give points for first picks only, then a few consolation points to the second pick for advancing to the semis and finals. That's not going to fix it completly (it always has and always will happen) but it would deminish the impact a bit.

[GaryVoshol]

But that 16th pick only gets 1 point for draft selection to the #1 alliance, and gets less points if the alliance wins in elims. I think it is already taken into account. When the plan came out I didn't understand and didn't like the lesser points for the third member of the alliance, but now I do understand.

[fuzzy1718]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Maybe next year, they should give points for first picks only, then a few consolation points to the second pick for advancing to the semis and finals.

That would do no good because there are many third pick teams that help their alliance quite a bit. The only way around it is to change the elimination round structure completely, which is ill advised. There will always be teams that are pressed through by luck, just as there will always be teams that fall through the cracks, but that is life.
First will never be 100% "fair", just as life will never be 100% "fair". Some things are out of our hands, just deal with it. I think no changes are needed, as far as the third pick goes, but there are other areas in the points system that need improvment; I'll leave those are for a later discussion.

[Ed Law]

Originally Posted by GVDrummer

I agree with you Springman, 216 had a rough time up in traverse city for it being their first competition, every single one of the students was new to the program including the coaches so they had no idea what to expect.

I am very confused with what is happening in Grandville. Is Team 216 a second team from Grandville High School that already has team 288? So even though all students were new to the program including the coaches, they are not considered a rookie team. There is something wrong with this picture when Team 2771 has 9 students and their mentor who left Team 288 who have done FRC for years to start a new team and they are considered a rookie team. It just doesn't seem to be fair.

[Alex Dinsmoor]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Maybe next year, they should give points for first picks only, then a few consolation points to the second pick for advancing to the semis and finals. That's not going to fix it completly (it always has and always will happen) but it would deminish the impact a bit.

Like assign third pick points based on their ranking/how far they go into the elimination rounds.

Say the #8 alliance wins the event, their second pick was actually the 9th pick so their 2nd pick would get more points than the 2nd pick (16th overall) for the #1 alliance if they win.

Besides that, the current point system is pretty solid. Although I think the point gap between winners, finalists, and semi-finalists are pretty large. If FiM based the semi and finalist's points more on if they went to 3 matches vs 2, the points would be even more realistic.