When can the drivers step forward

[barstow]

We have run into a problem with the rule clarifying when the drivers can step forward. We want to know what everyone else's experience and rule-reading is.
We are at the Colorado Regional

[BenX02]

As soon as Atonymous (sp?) mode is over. As soon as you hear the buzzer.

[DCA Fan]

My understanding is that it is at the sound of the buzzer.

What is the specific incident in which this was a problem? You should bring up these concerns with the head ref and bring the game manual to back up your claims.

[Logan Byers]

Originally Posted by BenX02

As soon as Atonymous (sp?) mode is over. As soon as you hear the buzzer.

I would suggest not going by the field sounds, they can be misleading/mistimed.
Generally, the drivers are allowed to cross the line once the timer for autonomous hits zero.

For the actual rule, it's rule <G38> (note: also see definition of AUTONOMOUS PERIOD, <G01>)

[thefro526]

Here's what I've been told this year.

You can step forward as soon as autonomous ends. Meaning that, you can be at the controls during any kind of delay between autonomous and teleop.

USUALLY, you can go by the buzzer. I've seen a few teams step forward at the buzzer and then a ref informs them they stepped forward too early. Here's the thing, the buzzer and other sounds can lag behind or run ahead of the Clock by up to a second or two so it's always best to go by the clock.

That being said, as soon as the Autonomous Time reads Zero, you SHOULD be able to step forward and touch the controls, or at least that's how I do it.

*Disclaimer* I am not a member of the GDC and this is not the place for official answers. If you're problem persists please contact the GDC through the Q/A system for help.

[Vikesrock]

In previous years teams have been instructed to step forward after the official clock hits zero.

*Note: previous years rules and rulings do not apply to this year*

What I would recommend is to talk to your head ref and just go by whatever he/she says, this should prevent any potential issues.

[Chris Fultz]

This rule does not specfically state it, but it has been said in the drivers meeting that play starts with the clock, not the announcer or buzzer.

Same with the transition from auto to tele, but it is stated clearly here that auto ends with the timer displays zero and the following section says tele is immediately following auto.

<G01> AUTONOMOUS PERIOD - The AUTONOMOUS PERIOD is the 15-second period at the
start of the MATCH. PILOT control of the ROBOT is not permitted at this time. During this
period, the ROBOTS may react only to sensor inputs and commands programmed into the
onboard control system. All ROBOT safety rules are still applicable during the
AUTONOMOUS PERIOD. The AUTONOMOUS PERIOD ends when the arena timer
displays zero seconds left in the period.
<G02> TELEOPERATED PERIOD – The TELEOPERATED PERIOD is the 2-minute period of
game play immediately following the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD. At the beginning of the
TELEOPERATED PERIOD the OPERATOR CONSOLE controls are activated and PILOTS
may remotely control their ROBOTS. The PILOTS continue to teleoperate their ROBOTS
for the remainder of the MATCH. The TELEOPERATED PERIOD ends when the arena
timer displays zero seconds. This also indicates the end of the MATCH.

[nahstobor]

When the clock hits zero

[bigbeezy]

Yes do not go by the sounds especially when you go to ATL because at times you can hear another field's sounds too. Always go by the clock, now I'm not driving this year so i dont know if moving at 0 is okay or waiting until 120 like it sometimes has been in the past. For the most part this year the end of auton and begin of tele is so quick there isn't much difference between 0 and 120. Waiting that extra second my cause you to get a moon rock scored on you but thats only 2 points as opposed to 10 for the penalty

[annie1939]

We ended up getting a penalty for stepping forward and touching the controls before the bell. We were told that "to be safe " we shouldn't step forward before the bell ( not the buzzer.) It was announced the next day at the driver's meeting that the bell was the determining factor on when you could step forward. We knew we were right, but there is not much you can do when the head ref makes the ruling. Sigh....

Well , on to next year!!

[EricH]

The GDC made a ruling: It's when the clock hits zero. As soon as the clock hits zero, automode is over, no matter if the sounds have sounded or not.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread...8840#post28840

If the clock hits zero, and you step forward right afterwards, and you get a penalty for stepping forward before the bell, you might wish to show the linked Q&A to the head ref. Whether the ruling is changed or not in your case, you will get clarification, and possibly an overall change in how it's called at the event.

[Vikesrock]

This is an excellent opportunity for a learning experience for your team. As a drive coach I have a small list of questions that write up beforehand and bring to the driver's meeting. If these questions aren't answered or asked by others in the driver's meeting I will ask them.

Here are a few things from my list for this year:

1. When can the driver's step forward?
2. Where exactly can a PS reach with the tongs? (I've seen various interpretations in whether you can reach outside the airlock or not)
3. Can the super cell be touched before 20 sec. if not removed from the cell rack?

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by EricH

The GDC made a ruling: It's when the clock hits zero. As soon as the clock hits zero, automode is over, no matter if the sounds have sounded or not.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread...8840#post28840

If the clock hits zero, and you step forward right afterwards, and you get a penalty for stepping forward before the bell, you might wish to show the linked Q&A to the head ref. Whether the ruling is changed or not in your case, you will get clarification, and possibly an overall change in how it's called at the event.

There's your official answer. It's been when the clock reaches zero for as long as I've paid attention to it, and the GDC has clarified it for us this year, so there you go. (:

[annie1939]

Yes. We posted the QA, but it was too late to help us. The driver had asked at the previous event to double check when he could step forward, and we knew we were right ,but you can only push so far. We ended up losing that round by a couple of points. We would have ended up in the top 8, but the alliance with SWIFT and TIN MAN would still have won the event so it didn't affect the outcome that much. It was just frustrating. Next year I will make sure all the drive team has the complete set of rules on their I- phones so that they could flash the rule to the judge. Part of the problem was not having the documentation on hand as they were making the challenge. We had the info in the pit, but that was too late. The kids did specifically ask at the drive team meeting the next morning, because we watched at least half the teams still going forward at the buzzer and not being penalized for the rest of Friday afternoon.

What is the best way to handle a situation where you have challenged the call and been refused yet you find the documented rule shortly afterwards that shows you were correct? I know it opens a slippery slope on people starting to lawyer the rules, but standing up for yourself is also an important skill to learn. We ended up just asking specific questions in the meeting the next morning for clarification. Luckily for us, the penalty occurred at our last match on Friday so we didn't have to worry about it again, but I think Gracious Professionalism also means standing up for what is right. Should we have been more insistent? What if someone else had received a penalty for doing the same thing and we knew it was the wrong call? Was it our duty to stand up and support them? Are the winners now going to go to Atlanta and wait half a second for the bell because that's what they were told the rule was? We didn't raise too much of a fuss because we didn't want to NOT be seen as gracious professionals, but (and we are into philosophy here) was that the "right" decision? Does "gracious professionalism" mean never raising a fuss even when you know you are right? (Remember that question was not about this specific situation, but about life in general ) (Watch out ! I may start straying into questions about the meaning of life )

And I will admit that this rule seemed to be written vaguely. It talked about where you can be in Autonomous and Teleoperated Modes and when they end. But the GDC also issued an update about the 6 different phases of the game in Update #9 and that there was a "negligible delay" between the two modes. To me, that means a delay you can ignore, but maybe to the ref it didn't. Maybe he was reading the "autonomous disabled" and "teleoperated disabled" in update 9 as a period of time between the 2 modes where you weren't allowed to do anything. We couldn't find explicit instructions about when or how you could transition between the two modes. And since he was going by the sounds and not the clock, we couldn't find any info about that in our hurried perusal after the fact. "Immediately following" and "negligible delay" are not as precise as saying there is a 0 delay between the two so it was subject to interpretation.

But this situation does give me ammunition for next year when I tell the kids to memorize the rules. Maybe I will get nods instead of groans ( I can always hope !!)

On the other hand, the regional committee did the best they could in Denver considering we were shut down on Thursday by a blizzard. It really showed how important that Thursday practice day is. We had a lot of competition rounds where the robots didn't work at all because they didn't have that day before to work on them. I remember in KC ,even on the first week of regionals, it was rare not to have a working robot on the field because we had that first day to repair.