How about eight divisions on four fields

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by EricH

And so you're practically doing the same thing as currently. You're just adding another 8 matches without subtracting any.

Minimum of 8, could be up to 12 (or more with ties).

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Are you suggesting that some teams go out there just to grandstand, don't really think about the effect of that attitude on their alliance partners and the match results, and thus end up selecting themselves out of the elimination rounds?

I don't think that's quite it. Imagine that you're playing your seventh and final qualifying match at the championship. Your current record is 3-3, so you are mathematically eliminated from becoming an alliance captain. You're facing the legendary team 46, and your best hope to win the match is to pin them against the wall while your partners try to score. You'd be surprised to find that many teams in that situation would sacrifice the good of the alliance to take advantage of their last opportunity to demonstrate their own offensive capabilities, in the hopes of being noticed by another team doing last-minute scouting. I can't say I'd fault them.

[Jared Russell]

I would rather see 4 divisions and 8 fields (9 with Einstein). Each division could have a "double field", two fields right next to each other. Matches wouldn't be played on both at the same time, but you could have one field getting ready while the other plays. Thus even matches are played on field "A" while odd matches are on field "B". The wait between matches could be reduced to a minute or two and we could actually get more than 6 or 7 matches per team.

FIRST definitely has the fields, but I don't know if (a) the wifi will play well or (b) there would be too much of a strain on the announcers and referees with such a hectic pace.

[ScottOliveira]

I'm not sure if there would be space for 8 fields in the Georgia Dome. Sure it's a large area, but keep in mind you need to try to keep all of the fields visible to the stands, while leaving room for all of the extra materials they have (spare balls, etc), paths for travel, space for queues. It would be a very difficult fit. And think about how much trouble it would cause in the stands if you had to move seats to get a good angle to see your team play for the next match

[Brian C]

Well after reading through all of the interesting discussions here I wanted to just add a couple of observations.

The main floor of the Dome is already pretty “busy” with the 4 division fields, the FTC field, the Einstein field along with the support equipment for each one. ( as Scott points out above)

I would love to see more divisions added as it would be great to give more teams the opportunity to be in elimination rounds. However I think realistically you need to look at the logistics of the whole operation.

The current capacity of approximately 400 FRC teams gives us a pit area that is already a very busy place. More teams may be accommodated by using more of the Georgia Convention Centers facility such as where the auto show usually is. However the trade off would be a much longer walk to the Dome floor for teams.

8 championships divisions would likely lead to less teams per division, let’s say approximately 60 teams just for arguments sake. This would lead to less time between matches for teams coupled with the “commute” back and forth to the fields makes it difficult for teams to perform necessary maintenance/repairs.

Now as far as 2 fields per division that sounds a lot like Double Trouble in 1999 where we had 2 smaller fields next to each other allowing for a quick turnaround between matches. While this would certainly allow for matches to cycle quicker you’re still going to be limited by wireless connectivity, scoring system limitations and items to that effect.

At the Long Island Regional we were down to 5 minutes cycle time between matches. 46 teams played 11 qualifying rounds each. I can tell you that we were VERY busy and worked hard to get the matches cycled through as quickly as possible. If it’s possible to move things along more quickly and maintain accuracy we’re always looking for ideas.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Jared341

I would rather see 4 divisions and 8 fields (9 with Einstein). Each division could have a "double field", two fields right next to each other. Matches wouldn't be played on both at the same time, but you could have one field getting ready while the other plays. Thus even matches are played on field "A" while odd matches are on field "B". The wait between matches could be reduced to a minute or two and we could actually get more than 6 or 7 matches per team.

FIRST definitely has the fields, but I don't know if (a) the wifi will play well or (b) there would be too much of a strain on the announcers and referees with such a hectic pace.

I thought about this too, and agree that the pace would be substantially higher than a normal field. Particularly, the head ref could become overwhelmed and accidentally make a bad judgment call. The reset crew would never be bored, and for games like this year (where there's 30 seconds of utter mayhem in resetting the field...) extra reset time could perhaps alleviate some of the more dangerous collisions that have happened when getting 6 bots on, 6 bots off, and 6 trailers back into place (I still have a scar from DC ).

All it would cost is twice the price of the field. Why have only one when you can have 2 at twice the price?

But rather than having more qualification matches, I'd just rather the durn thing finish on time. Last year we had to duck out at 7pm to just barely make an 8:40 flight back home, missing both Einstein finals matches. This year, like last year, is scheduled to end at 6pm -- let's hope it's at least remotely close!

[Fe_Will]

Or they could change Thursday to half practice then start the qualifications. I mean everyone has been to at least one regional at that point do we really need more practice? More qualifiers would eliminate the luck factor and allow all the teams to play more matches at the championship.

[rick.oliver]

Originally Posted by Fe_Will

Or they could change Thursday to half practice then start the qualifications. I mean everyone has been to at least one regional at that point do we really need more practice? More qualifiers would eliminate the luck factor and allow all the teams to play more matches at the championship.

We had that discussion in 2006.


http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...003#post499003

[Enigma's puzzle]

Ok here is an actual viable question, Why doesn't first have a third and fourth place match? I mean while they are allowing cool down and everyone one is chilling in the stands bored and waiting, why don't they just allow the semifinalists a chance to face off? At Einstein, especially but why not at any regional/district event?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Enigma's puzzle

Ok here is an actual viable question, Why doesn't first have a third and fourth place match?

I think that would put too much value on the robot competition. We don't necessarily want to celebrate yet more teams being incrementally better than others.

[Brian C]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I think that would put too much value on the robot competition. We don't necessarily want to celebrate yet more teams being incrementally better than others.

I believe that Alan has hit on one of the main concepts that FIRST is all about and that all of us sometimes have a tendency to forget.

As much as we all get tied up in the competitive aspect of the program, competition is not the primary focus. It's more along the liines of ;

"have fun competing and helping each other and if you're not careful, you might learn something!"

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Enigma's puzzle

Ok here is an actual viable question, Why doesn't first have a third and fourth place match? I mean while they are allowing cool down and everyone one is chilling in the stands bored and waiting, why don't they just allow the semifinalists a chance to face off? At Einstein, especially but why not at any regional/district event?

At Championship they give out awards in between matches on Einstein. There are very few "cooldown" periods where there isn't something going on right next to the field.

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

At Championship they give out awards in between matches on Einstein. There are very few "cooldown" periods where there isn't something going on right next to the field.

For those of you who haven't really paid attention the cycle time on Einstein is more than 15 minutes per match because of the speeches, longer if Dean speaks...

It is a painfully long match cycle and is already pretty nerve racking for the students participating. It's easy to forget that 12 teams are sitting on or by the field through all those speeches trying to remember to charge ther pnuematics and make sure everything is set and ready to go. The longer you wait the more you doubt yourself as ready to go. It's also physically taxing because you are out there from lunch until about 7pm on Saturday. I have found myself providing water and snacks for our team and alliance partners just to keep them going because they are stuck out on the Dome floor for so long.

Also as it comes to time over run, if you make Einstein as it is now you are lucky to have a chance to have your pit packed up by 8pm on Saturday. When you go back over to the pits and the only teams left are the Einstein and ready alternates packing up it's a kind of eiry experience because everyone else is long gone.

[rick.oliver]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

... if you make Einstein as it is now you are lucky to have a chance to have your pit packed up by 8pm on Saturday. When you go back over to the pits and the only teams left are the Einstein and ready alternates packing up it's a kind of eiry experience because everyone else is long gone.

I for one would really like to have that experience sometime.

[ScottOliveira]

Originally Posted by rick.oliver

I for one would really like to have that experience sometime.

Seconded.