No more adult coaches

[archiver]

Posted by julia walsh at 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST


Other on team #191, XCATS, from Wilson Magnet School and xerox.



XCATS -#191- have had only student coaches for the last 3 years. You have to qualify and it is usually seniors.
With the heartbreak this year, of adults pushing the red button, I think we should think seriously about all student coaches for next year.
Perhaps only rookie teams could have one adult coach.

After all who's competition is this anyway??

[archiver]

Posted by Wayne Cokeley at 04/12/2001 8:34 AM EST


Coach on team #25, Raider Robotix, from North Brunswick Twp. H.S. and Bristol-Myers Squibb.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



: XCATS -#191- have had only student coaches for the last 3 years. You have to qualify and it is usually seniors.
: With the heartbreak this year, of adults pushing the red button, I think we should think seriously about all student coaches for next year.
: Perhaps only rookie teams could have one adult coach.

: After all who's competition is this anyway??

More distressing were the highly emotional, goal oriented, adult coaches which we found simply shouted down or ignored our sophomore student drive team. Professional? Maybe, but certainly not gracious. Adults on the field tend to destroy any credibility a young drive team might have since they automatically are no longer peers despite their knowledge of the game or lack thereof.
I was surprised that in Fla there was a designation (with the yellow sticker) of which students were the coaches and were therefore allowed to push the red button. Since our entire drive team is made of students would it really have made a difference? I guess it's just the rules....

[archiver]

Posted by Deej- T190 at 04/12/2001 9:04 AM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompeii, from Mass Academy and WPI.


In Reply to: Re: No more adult coaches
Posted by Wayne Cokeley on 04/12/2001 8:34 AM EST:



Our coaching staff on T-190 was two college students with 6 years a piece of FIRST experience. While there was times when adult coaches from other teams wouldn't listen to us, we had the prior experience and knowledge to put in valuable strategic ideas for qualifiers. When our team was on stage with a young drive team, we listened to what they had to say and went from there, not pushing our way through things. overall it was a very good experience....

[archiver]

Posted by Kris Verdeyen at 04/12/2001 8:37 AM EST


Engineer on team #118, Robonauts, from CCISD and NASA - Johnson Space Center and Friends.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



A clarification: student coaches aren't allowed to push the stop button either.

As far as your idea, though, I'd be in favor of it. The trouble of voluntary compliance with that rule, though, is the danger of a student coach being bossed around by the adult coach of another team. But if all coaches were required to be HS students, the negotiations would probably be a lot smoother.

[archiver]

Posted by Patrick Dingle at 04/12/2001 9:02 AM EST


College Student on team #639, Red B^2, from Ithaca High School and Cornell University.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Although I was a coach this year and not a high school student, I think that is a GREAT idea. Having the team up on the stage all being high school students I think would be awesome. Since there would be rookie teams that would be up there for the first time, maybe the refs could simply check and make sure the battery is plugged in and the controller is ready to go. That way no dumb mistakes are made. I'll bring this up at our next team meeting -- whether its in the rules or not for next year, having two HS student coaches is something we should consider.

Patrick

: XCATS -#191- have had only student coaches for the last 3 years. You have to qualify and it is usually seniors.
: With the heartbreak this year, of adults pushing the red button, I think we should think seriously about all student coaches for next year.
: Perhaps only rookie teams could have one adult coach.

: After all who's competition is this anyway??

[archiver]

Posted by Mike Graser at 04/12/2001 9:52 AM EST


Engineer on team #174, Arctic Warriors, from Liverpool HS, NY and Carrier.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Our team generally sends up two adult coaches in the early rounds to be able to check on any problems with the robot. We then scale it back to one and their primary purpose is to help set up the robot before the match. As the rounds progress we go to all student coaches. As an adult coach I feel my responsibilities are to make sure of the little things; is the robot turned on, do we all have buttons, etc and to relax the team. The drivers have enough confusion and stress without me shouting out instructions.

One other good thing about adult coaches... if things go wrong in the match, they can calmly explain
what happened to the other adults. This helps prevent the non-coaching adults from giving the student drivers the 3rd degree after the match.

[archiver]

Posted by ChrisH at 04/12/2001 12:07 PM EST


Engineer on team #330, Beach 'Bots, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA JPL, J & F Machine, Raytheon, et al.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



This year we started in LA with two adult coaches who actively worked to shape strategy. But we found that other teams seemed to resent this. So we went to an all student team. OK one was a college student who drove last year, but he looked like a student and many of the other teams knew him from previous years.

After one match in SJ where our students were yelled at in a most unprofessional way, we put back one adult. His job was just to make sure things didn't get out of hand. He made no input to strategy.

I don't think we would object to a no-adults rule. Our drivers have years of experience and we drive the robot throughout the build stage. As an engineer I'm not allowed to touch the controls EVER. If I need something driven during the build I have to get one of the drivers to do it for me. It's just more practice for them and not all that different from working in a union shop to me.

Our drive team is experienced enough with the robot that I don't even worry about things not being properly setup or turned on. If it's that critical we do it in the pit anyway.

My $0.02
Chris Husmann,PE
Team 330 the Beach'Bots

[archiver]

Posted by C. Merritt at 04/12/2001 12:39 PM EST


Coach on team #211, MAK, from John Marshall HS and Kodak.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Just a quick thought: it wasn't only the adults that got their teams disqualified. The buttons, balls and controls could not be touched by the team members that had yellow dots on their pink buttons. On many teams, drivers, controlers and human players rotated with the two student coaches in different matches. In some cases, the student who had on the button with the yellow dot hit the stop button and the team was disqualified.

Just a thought to add to the discussion

[archiver]

Posted by Carolyn Duncan at 04/12/2001 2:00 PM EST


Student on team #495, The Pack, from Jamestown High School and VBEP/Raytheon/Saic.


In Reply to: Re: No more adult coaches
Posted by C. Merritt on 04/12/2001 12:39 PM EST:



In some cases, the student who had on the button with the yellow dot hit the stop button and the team was disqualified.

: Just a thought to add to the discussion

This happened to my team in the first match on the Curie field. One of the members of another team on the alliance hit the kill though he was wearing the badge with the yellow dot. Even though the refs made sure to tell everyone personally that they had the yellow dot and could not hit the kill, shoot balls or touch the joysticks. We all got DQed in our first match. Oh well. What if all the people on the field are students, should it matter then who hits the kill?
:Carolyn
Team 495

[archiver]

Posted by Andy Baker at 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



It's too bad that some adult coaches make things bad for the rest of us. I agree, there were a few disrespectful and untruthful adult coaches out there, but the majority of the coaches are good to work with, in my opinion.

I had the honor to be the on-field coach and head negotiator for our team (45).

I disagree with the motion to restrict "adults" from being coaches on the field for numerous reasons:

1. From what I recall, FIRST has always said that they want adult coaches on the field. They want to have some engineers in the spotlight, so that kids can recognize these people as positive role models.

2. At least one adult needs to be out there to accept resposibility of all actions of the drive team on the field. For our team, all drive team decisions were filtered through me, so if anything went wrong, the buck stopped there. That way, I can keep other people (team members, corporate staff, school administration) off our kids backs.

3. Of all of the difficult times that we had with other teams during the pre-match meeting, most of them were with student coaches. Although there were some exceptions, students were not prepared to quickly organize the match to get the job done. If a student was organized enough to do this, then they ran the floor. If they simply yelled louder than the rest of us, then they were tactfully told to listen to the rest of the alliance.

4. Believe it or not, this competition is not just about the students. You can say that, but it's not really true. Too many adults put in too many hours to let a team's destiny be in the hands of some under-prepared students. I mean no disrespect to students... there were some darn good student coaches out there this year... they were just in the minority.

5. Another good thing about having adult coaches out there is having continuity from year to year. I think that the main reason that the Midwest Regionals had higher scores is that many of the coaches on the field know each other well enough that the negotiations usually went smooth.

If FIRST would've let us have MORE time to plan the match, then having student coaches would've been fine. This "pre-match negotiation" process was the toughest part of this year's game, and it was not fun. Sometimes, I found it not enjoyable at all... but it had to be done in order to play the game at a competitive level.

Andy B.

[archiver]

Posted by Joe Johnson at 04/12/2001 2:13 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



You are about as good of a human being as I know.

Thanks for your comments.

For what it's worth, I agree with you across the board.

Joe J.

[archiver]

Posted by Bill Gold at 04/12/2001 2:45 PM EST


Student on team #258, The Sea Dawgs, from Lincoln High and KPC&B, Applied Materials, SJUSD, and Mr. Stokely.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



I don't really care who stands behind the glass, but I feel like I didn't get much respect from the majority of adult coaches I met at the events. I was my team's pre-match negotiator. But I found that the majority of adult coaches wouldn't even listen to a word I would say. They had their own strategies in mind and wouldn't even consider what I had to offer.

I was so frustrated that I told my teacher, Mr. Stokely, that he should be the strategist, since there was a chance that people would listen to him. Those of you who know him, know what I mean :-)

I'm sure that you're not like this Andy, but I ran into a bunch of "I'm smarter than you so we'll do things my way" adults.

[archiver]

Posted by Kris Verdeyen at 04/12/2001 3:26 PM EST


Engineer on team #118, Robonauts, from CCISD and NASA - Johnson Space Center and Friends.


In Reply to: Re: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Bill Gold on 04/12/2001 2:45 PM EST:



I agree totally with your comment about respect. As a young looking 22 year old, I was mistaken for a high school student many times at our regional and at nats and summarily ignored. But, I was guilty of a similar offense when I told a high school student that he needed to give the button with a yellow dot to a coach.

I think that it would be a good idea to have the students do most of the negotiating, but to still have a single adult coach on the field to help if things get out of hand. A great way to encourage more student participation in coaching would be (listen up here, FIRST) to post the match pairings much earlier. This would enable the students milling around in the pits to do the strategy sessions, or perhaps even have strategy meetings online, before even arriving in Florida. The downside to that plan (one of them, anyway) is that it reduces the amount of scouting a team needs to do.



: I don't really care who stands behind the glass, but I feel like I didn't get much respect from the majority of adult coaches I met at the events. I was my team's pre-match negotiator. But I found that the majority of adult coaches wouldn't even listen to a word I would say. They had their own strategies in mind and wouldn't even consider what I had to offer.

: I was so frustrated that I told my teacher, Mr. Stokely, that he should be the strategist, since there was a chance that people would listen to him. Those of you who know him, know what I mean :-)

: I'm sure that you're not like this Andy, but I ran into a bunch of "I'm smarter than you so we'll do things my way" adults.

[archiver]

Posted by Matt Leese at 04/12/2001 2:50 PM EST


College Student on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



I think that what you're going to find is that some students make good coaches and some students make bad coaches. And guess what? Some adults make good coaches and some adults make bad coaches. Usually for exactly the same reason. I think having student coaches helps the students a lot more than having adult coaches helps the students. Students don't learn too much from having adult coaches. However, having student coaches helps the coaches learn to work together, plan, be prepared. It just comes down to picking the right people -- student or adult.

Matt who's been on a team with only student coaches and a team with only adult coaches to varying degrees of success

[archiver]

Posted by Paul Copioli at 04/12/2001 5:15 PM EST


Engineer on team #217, Team Macomb - Royal Fusion, from Utica Schools, Fraser Schools, Warren Cons. School and Ford Motor Company.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



I have to agree with Andy and Joe on this one.

Restricting the coaching to only students is as bad as restricting coaching to only adults. Each team has their own preference and should be allowed the freedom to choose their coaches accordingly.

At Nationals there were teams with all students, teams with 1 adult, and teams with 2 adults. Each time we strategized, we listened to each negotiator: adult or student. Our team happens to think that the interaction between engineers and students on the field is as important as the interaction off the field. If you don't feel that way, fine; but don't try to limit other teams because you don't want adult coaches. If you think student coaches are better, then have student coaches.

On last thing. Please remember that the engineers are volunteering their time for the students. We are here for you. Interaction on the field between mentor and student is rewarding for both mentor and student. Please remember that.

-Paul