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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-04-2009, 17:19
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Re: Interesting speed test

i think a fairer test would be morse code verus a stenograph.
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Unread 13-04-2009, 18:41
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Re: Interesting speed test

The demonstration only proves that using a 12 key keypad is inefficient for encoding a text message. So what? I get annoyed with it when I just to had to enter a name into a phone list let alone try to do a 50 character message. When I gave in to texting for my teenagers we all got qwerty cellphones.

Best case scenario for the telegraph was to send telegrams; typically a customer would write down the message of 50 words or less and hand it off to the local telegraph operator that would send it electronically to a telegraph operator at the other end who would then write it down and hand it off to someone else. Both telegraph operators would make money on the deal.

The average person that likes texting has already switched over to a qwerty keyboard and easily does over 3 letters per second, and typically use text slang to dramatically reduce letter count.

If someone hands me a note with a message to get to someone else, then I typically snap a picture of it and send it to them because it takes less than 5 seconds of my mental energy to get it done. Unlike the telegraph operators, I usually don't make money on the deal.

I used to have to know how to toggle in binary machine language for the card reader program on to a IBM 1130.
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/ex...130_intro.html
(I love the picture: I think the guy is wearing FIRST safety glasses).

So if we agree that Morris code is a technology whose applications still include the practical as well as the nostalgic: Can we make the same judgement about smoke signals?


I wonder if FIRST participants are more or less likely than the general public to have:
1) cellphones
2) texting on their cellphone (that they use)
3) picture capability on their cellphones (that they use)

My bet is "more likely".

If we limit it to the FIRST participants that practice Morris Code, then I wonder it the percentages would change. Should I start a poll?
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Unread 13-04-2009, 19:03
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Re: Interesting speed test

boomer, you are missing the point. The entire thought of this thread is that old technologies can be competitive with modern technology. Besides, to disregard the historical Morse code is to forget one's roots.

I honestly don't know where my family is from. I don't care either. To me, my roots are that of the Morse, Archimedes, Einstein, and Descartes. Any person that has dramatically changed the history of man deserves a spot in the history that he has changed.

As a fellow mentor, I believe it is our job to not only prepare students for the future. But to also to teach them a deep respect for the past. I sincerely hope that this message is passed on to all the students of FIRST.

Note: I am sure I have no biological tie to any of the great minds mentioned.
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Unread 13-04-2009, 19:06
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Re: Interesting speed test

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomergeek View Post
So if we agree that Morris code is a technology whose applications still include the practical as well as the nostalgic: Can we make the same judgement about smoke signals?


I wonder if FIRST participants are more or less likely than the general public to have:
1) cellphones
2) texting on their cellphone (that they use)
3) picture capability on their cellphones (that they use)

My bet is "more likely".

If we limit it to the FIRST participants that practice Morris Code, then I wonder it the percentages would change. Should I start a poll?
Spelling note: I don't know who this Morris character is, but Samuel Morse is the inventor of Morse code.

As for the history, you're correct. Also note that in terms of speed, it was the fastest way to get a message coast-to-coast; seconds/minutes instead of the 10 days-6 weeks that you'd otherwise get, until the telephone came around.

Smoke signals are a different ball game. You can't compare apples and oranges.

As for the question, I have a cell phone, but I only use it for voice communications (as telephones and cell phones were originally designed). I have texting capability, but I don't use it; I have a camera and use it, but don't send picture messages. I don't know much Morse code, but I do know this:

Cell phones lose to flashlight (Morse code optional) signals between mountains when there isn't cell service! If I don't have cell service and I need emergency help, I will probably use a dot-dot-dot dash-dash-dash dot-dot-dot pattern with a signal mirror or a flashlight until I get somebody's attention.

Yep, cell phones have one disadvantage: they're useless if you can't get a signal. Telegraph had that, but they also had messengers to take the message to you from the station.
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Unread 13-04-2009, 22:42
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Re: Interesting speed test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molten View Post
boomer, you are missing the point. The entire thought of this thread is that old technologies can be competitive with modern technology. Besides, to disregard the historical Morse code is to forget one's roots.

I honestly don't know where my family is from. I don't care either. To me, my roots are that of the Morse, Archimedes, Einstein, and Descartes. Any person that has dramatically changed the history of man deserves a spot in the history that he has changed.

As a fellow mentor, I believe it is our job to not only prepare students for the future. But to also to teach them a deep respect for the past. I sincerely hope that this message is passed on to all the students of FIRST.

Note: I am sure I have no biological tie to any of the great minds mentioned.
I could not agree more..... "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana) As both mentors and parents we need to teach the past, as well as helping them learn the skills that will lead them to the future.

A long the lines of the Delphi web hug, maybe we should get all the Amateur Radio Operators together to promote our hobby to the FIRST community.
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Unread 13-04-2009, 22:53
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Re: Interesting speed test

Be sure to include team 842....several of them have licenses
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Unread 14-04-2009, 00:35
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Re: Interesting speed test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molten View Post
boomer, you are missing the point. The entire thought of this thread is that old technologies can be competitive with modern technology. Besides, to disregard the historical Morse code is to forget one's roots.

I honestly don't know where my family is from. I don't care either. To me, my roots are that of the Morse, Archimedes, Einstein, and Descartes. Any person that has dramatically changed the history of man deserves a spot in the history that he has changed.

As a fellow mentor, I believe it is our job to not only prepare students for the future. But to also to teach them a deep respect for the past. I sincerely hope that this message is passed on to all the students of FIRST.

Note: I am sure I have no biological tie to any of the great minds mentioned.
In fact, the point of this thread is to nostalgically throw a bone to an old technology that was critical in its day and yet has very limited practical use today. The parlor trick is that the txt encoding on a 12 key cellphone was designed for simplicity and not for speed. A qwerty keyboard on a cellphone is many times faster, and snapping a photo or reading it over the phone is even faster and easier technology.

As far as I know, most people don't even use Morse code, but use continental code invented by Friedrich Clemens Gerke in 1848. Translating letters into codes had existed for centuries- Braille came out in the 1820s; I Ching had a systematic encoding scheme over 2000 years ago.

Don't get me wrong: Morse's mechanical inventions and his encoding scheme played a huge role in the growth of this country. I do not heard enough of Morse accomplishments to rate the significance of his science/engineering with the greats like Einstein, Bell, Edison, Marconi, Tesla, Newton, Descartes, Da Vinci, etc.

I found this online...http://books.google.com/books?id=k3X...m=8#PPA2 5,M1

I never said it was appropriate to disregard the international Morse Code, as a piece of history and for its practical application if you are in to licensed radio.
Navajo code talkers had their place in history as well.

But gimmick parlor tests are easily seen as both contrived and irrelevant by students. Pretending that human operated single key coding is faster than two finger keying on a QWERTY keyboard is just a piece of propaganda.

Granted, for emergencies, some people at some point in their lives possibly could be aided by knowing Morse Code. I did know it at one point: maybe I'll keep a MC chart and a mirror in my wallet in case of emergencies next time I go through the wilderness... or I could get that SATphone or a Ham radio
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Unread 14-04-2009, 01:01
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Re: Interesting speed test

An interesting story:

One day in drafting class, the teacher suggested that Inventor was superior to AutoCAD. A student in the class disagreed. He challenged the teacher to a duel. The rules were set. The first person to draw a front, side, top, and isometric view of a cube would win.(cube due to time limit) So, the two of them agreed to the terms and started. AutoCAD loaded pretty quickly and the student had an early lead. Once Inventor had finally opened, the teacher was off. The student drew the basic square around the time the teacher opened the ipt file. The student had the three views done in the time it took for the teacher to extrude. Before the teacher could open the idw file, the student was finished with the isometric.

This happened my Sophomore year. The class was shocked by the outcome. However, it wasn't the better tool that prevailed. It wasn't the better draftsmen. It was the better team. You see, when person gets to be one with their tool, they can do amazing things. Its almost as if the two work in perfect harmony.

The same can be said for this race. The reason the two men beat the texters didn't have to do with the technology. It has nothing to do with the people. It has to do with the way the men and the machine work together.

Please visit the link that Vikesrock posted. The numbers there suggest that the record holders for CW could possibly even beat your camera or qwerty pad. Depending on the rules.
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Unread 14-04-2009, 07:42
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Re: Interesting speed test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molten View Post
An interesting story:

One day in drafting class, the teacher suggested that Inventor was superior to AutoCAD. A student in the class disagreed. He challenged the teacher to a duel. The rules were set. The first person to draw a front, side, top, and isometric view of a cube would win.(cube due to time limit) So, the two of them agreed to the terms and started. AutoCAD loaded pretty quickly and the student had an early lead. Once Inventor had finally opened, the teacher was off. The student drew the basic square around the time the teacher opened the ipt file. The student had the three views done in the time it took for the teacher to extrude. Before the teacher could open the idw file, the student was finished with the isometric.

This happened my Sophomore year. The class was shocked by the outcome. However, it wasn't the better tool that prevailed. It wasn't the better draftsmen. It was the better team. You see, when person gets to be one with their tool, they can do amazing things. Its almost as if the two work in perfect harmony.

The same can be said for this race. The reason the two men beat the texters didn't have to do with the technology. It has nothing to do with the people. It has to do with the way the men and the machine work together.

Please visit the link that Vikesrock posted. The numbers there suggest that the record holders for CW could possibly even beat your camera or qwerty pad. Depending on the rules.
Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.
The real rules to the real game are those of the market place.
The market place has spoken: if speed is most important, the loud and annoying push-to-talk feature on cellphones is currently the fastest way for the masses to "get more done now". http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

Most savvy message senders do not view their urgency is worth annoying everyone in hear shot of the recipient, and graciously decide to use txt or e-mail: the message is faster and more convenient to be read at the recipient's discretion as opposed to leaving an audio message on an answering service. I can't wait til some jokester decides to add audio Morse code to my voicemail.

But don't despair: the market place still includes the commerce of winning free drinks at the local bar with contrived competitions.

One nice thing about FIRST competitions is the rules aren't intentionally slanted to "prove" one technology is better than another one. Or are they and I just have not realized it yet???
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Unread 14-04-2009, 11:51
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Re: Interesting speed test

Mr. D et al,
I think it is important here to add a few things that can bend the impression a little. In deference to the new technology,
Radio CW, Morse encoded messages, can be transmitted and received with rudimentary, home built in a day from parts you can obtain at Radio Shack, simple but effective equipment. And this equipment can be built with as few parts as three or four transistors. Such equipment is in use everyday, for world wide communications without the use of local "cells" or repeaters and without special encoding/decoding circuitry. It can be understood even when the noise to signal (not signal to noise) is as high as 20 dB. The codes and abreviations used worldwide can be understood by all foreign operators without translation. In addition, coded morse messages can still be received and transmitted without the need to understand the message or information being passed. This equipment is used at all frequencies currently open to licensed operators. Operators of this "antiquated" mode are also the fathers of modern day techno improvments like the use of microwaves, single side band, digital modes, repeaters and yes even cell phones. Yes, it is sometimes hard to learn, hard to improve to high speed without practice, but it gets the job done. BTW, there is a contest/award for transmitting and receiving a message for the longest distance and lowest transmitted power called the "Milliwatt per Mile" award. As I remember the current record is something like 4000 miles on 0.0005 watts. I currently have three radios that make 5 watts or less output. Heath HW-8 @1.2 watts output max on 80 meters, Wilderness Radio Sierra 3 watts max depending on band @350ma transmit, and a Yaesu FT-817 @ 5 watts maximum. The first two are home built. All of these radios are 4 band minimum and the last one does 6M, 2M and 440 MHz as well.

Don should be able to give us accurate details on milliwatt per mile.
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Last edited by Al Skierkiewicz : 14-04-2009 at 11:54.
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Unread 14-04-2009, 13:13
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Re: Interesting speed test

Mr. D.: You might get a better response from me if you stop using excessive sarcasm.

Al has already pointed out something you missed.

FRC rules are not slanted to prove that one technology is better than another, no.

However, something you should realize is that the telegraph is the FOUNDATION of the (now "outdated") landline telephone (which, by the way, is still very effective when cell phones don't have reception, assuming there is one handy). Said landline telephone is the forerunner of the cellular telephone (and the texting machine, which is simply a cell phone that is used primarily for texting instead of voice communications), which is the forerunner of tomorrow's technology.

Without the telegraph and the codes used to transmit on it, you WOULD NOT have the modern cell phone. Oh, you might, but it would still be in development.

Oh, and I tend to use the voicemail feature and vibrate feature of my cell phone. Keeps it quiet when it goes off.
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Unread 14-04-2009, 20:43
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Re: Interesting speed test

I'd like to apologize to everyone that views my postings as filled with excessively sarcasm. The intent of my jokes was just a friendly jibe. Certainly, not intended to target any persons here: it was just to characterize the contrived nature of the test from my perspective.

I think everyone in FIRST has much to contribute and a free exchange of ideas is a good thing.

I have been a communications engineer for close to 30 years, architecting and engineering digital and fibre optic telecommunications systems for Bell Labs. It's probably an even bet or better, that the packets you received to be reading this posting, have traveled over one or more systems I helped develop.

My personal opinion is Claude Shannon did dramatically more, for the progress of communications theory, than Morse ever did: (Shannon did so much more engineering based on mathematics). Morse and many others were doing great work in the electrical telegraph field: Morse engineered a great recorder, got a key patent and a good business plan and made the most of it. But that is just my perspective and I hope you don't take offense because I choose to express it. BTW, I've got coworkers that I lunch with that are big into Ham radio: plenty of them spend many times more on their radios than on their cellphones: I simultaneously rib them and envy them too. One Elmer uses a spud cannon to shoot lines to pull antennas through the trees. (A non-destructive practical use for a spud cannon!) I also have one engineering friend that has his own half ton steam engine locomotive that he drives around his backyard.

I think older technology is great and stands on its own without contrived tests. I've seen a horse beat a race car in a speed race too: but that is certainly not why I appreciate horses.

Great older technology certainly does not need contrived tests offered by stand-up comics. The engineer in me cringes at such gimmicks that are intentionally spun to demonstrate an outcome and have no serious analog to practical application: but salesmen tend to love such unfair hooks because it gets attention. For radio/MC, an emergency message sending demonstration is much more appealing to the engineering side of my brain.

From my experience, most engineers tend to gristle at gimmicks.
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Unread 14-04-2009, 21:41
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Re: Interesting speed test

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Spelling note: I don't know who this Morris character is, but Samuel Morse is the inventor of Morse code.
...or at least what we use today is named after him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boomergeek View Post
Pretending that human operated single key coding is faster than two finger keying on a QWERTY keyboard is just a piece of propaganda.
Nyet Comrade, that's a fact: Perhaps you can get out 40 words per minute with no errors using 2 fingers on your desktop keyboard at work - but you really gotta be fast. 40 WPM is really the low end of the upper speeds seen in regular use. I looked up the world speed record and it's a little over 75 WPM. There are many who cannot type with 10 fingers at that speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Don should be able to give us accurate details on milliwatt per mile.
It is in the tens of millions of miles per watt. But that's a different topic, since modern digital techniques exceed that by nature of their coding gain.
Quote:
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My personal opinion is Claude Shannon did dramatically more, for the progress of communications theory, than Morse ever did: (Shannon did so much more engineering based on mathematics).
Well, I most certainly disagree with several of your statements, but that one I don't think anyone can dispute. Shannon - a mathematician! - was simply brilliant.

Oh, and to amplify Al's comments: I don't know why he needs so many transistors (three or four! ), I can send code using a battery and some wire, maybe some carbon to simplify things. Not legal any more, because it pollutes the radio spectrum badly, but in a pinch, any electrical source and some conductors will allow me to send a signal several hundred miles.

Oh, and EricH - it is best to write Morse code like it sounds: "Dididit dah dah dah dididit" for SOS - your brain doesn't hear the tones as 'dot' and 'dash' but as dit and dah, writing it like it sounds helps increase understanding. Just a trick I've learned.

--... ...-- -.. . -. ..--- .. .-. --..

Don

PS: FIRSTers, if there's somehting you didn't understand - google it. You might be surprised.
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Unread 14-04-2009, 22:45
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Re: Interesting speed test

Don,
I was pointing to you in case you had your finger on the latest low power long distance record from your other life.
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Unread 14-04-2009, 23:56
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Re: Interesting speed test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Rotolo View Post
...or at least what we use today is named after him.
Nyet Comrade, that's a fact: Perhaps you can get out 40 words per minute with no errors using 2 fingers on your desktop keyboard at work - but you really gotta be fast. 40 WPM is really the low end of the upper speeds seen in regular use. I looked up the world speed record and it's a little over 75 WPM. There are many who cannot type with 10 fingers at that speed
...
Some data that runs contrary to your statements
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/hand...pdf?sequence=1

Table 1: Ranges of Novice, Expert and Predicted typing speeds (in WPM) of various typing systems*
Novice Expert Predicted
Standard QWERTY 24 50-100 150 (typist)
Mini-QWERTY 29-35 58-62 27.7
Multi-tap 2-8 5 21-27
T9 3-10 8-20 45-50
FASTAP 6-8 9 Not calculated
Grafiti/Unistroke 1-10 14 Not calculated


The data shows that miniQWERTY is ten times faster for the experts and 3-15 times faster for the novices as compared to multi-tap: multitap was used in the Leno youtube.

According to wiki on Morse Code: The fastest speed ever sent by a straight key was achieved in 1942 by Harry Turner W9YZE (d. 1992) who reached 35 WPM in a demonstration at a U.S. Army base. Fastest speeds are a result of "hearing" phrases and sentences rather than words.

mini-QWERTY is fast and accurate for experts and there is no phrase recognition or sentence recognition (or mis-recognition) in the process.

BTW, there are several MC to text message apps popping up on different phones.

mini-QWERTY texters can compete to win $50K to prove how good they are:
How much do the fastest MCers get for their championships?
http://www.lgtexter.com/lgtexter/nationals.html
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