Lessons Learned - The Negative

[234smidget]

Next year, it would be nice if the fields were more towards the middle of the domebecause in the stands, it was hard to scout some robots because of all the teams infront of us.

[Andrew Y.]

Originally Posted by BurtGummer

I think what he is trying to say is that many rookie teams don't start with FTC. The ones that do already have a "season" going, and fundraising, summer, camps, and other activities are already in place and occurring from being in FTC. By joining FRC they just continued with what they were doing, and won the Rookie-All Star Award largely because of it. They may be rookie in FRC, but their activities aren't. (I don't know if that is true, but I think that is what he's trying to say.)

Now, I don't know when Rookie teams have to be registered by so they can get a KoP, but I know that even the sponsors and teachers who organized our team didn't know about doing this until late 2008. And at that point it was merely a thought in the back of their minds.

ok, i understand that that has a large part, but thats only if FIRST ran all 3 competition together, which they don't. Each are their own identity, with their own rules and judges. If a baseball player plays in the minors, then he comes up to the majors.....is he not a rookie in the majors?

[JamJam263]

Originally Posted by Nawaid Ladak

allright, let me get to it

... Xerox Creativity Award. /// 7, Helux, Power Dumper, Shooter, These were the four designs that i saw most of this weekend. FIRST. please stop making the award about the sponcor (Xerox...copies) and more about what it stands for.... Creativity, bending the envolope, thinking outside the box. Seriously, a robot with a Gyroscope won XCA this year at CMPl.... thast sad

Please inform me of how a Gyroscope is anything that you normally see on an FRC robot. From my understanding and observations I have seen very very few robots that incorporated a Gyroscope into their robot's design.None in the past, and a select few this year. I would love to know how it is a copy of anything previously done in this competition.

[sdcantrell56]

I agree that a gyroscope was pretty innovative. We threw around the idea early on but quickly moved on thinking it wouldnt be worth it. I still don't know if it was a worthwhile venture but it was very cool to see.

[MrForbes]

There are two types of gyroscopes...the sensor that comes in the KoP, and the type of heavy spinning disk that a few teams put on their robot.

[Andrew Y.]

Originally Posted by sdcantrell56

I agree that a gyroscope was pretty innovative. We threw around the idea early on but quickly moved on thinking it wouldnt be worth it. I still don't know if it was a worthwhile venture but it was very cool to see.

agreed, i personally really wanted all sorts of sensors and shinnanigans, but with a rookie programmer, and me as the only EMO (engineering mentor...and im not even an engineer...just a lonely college student.) with NO programming skills....(i do know java....kinda). I decided it was way too much for us to finish.

I mean, barely got our robot shipped!

[JamJam263]

Originally Posted by squirrel

There are two types of gyroscopes...the sensor that comes in the KoP, and the type of heavy spinning disk that a few teams put on their robot.

Very true. Ironically we used a gyroscope sensor on the Gyroscope (flywheel)

So let me rephrase what i said before:

"Please inform me of how a Gyroscope flywheel is anything that you normally see on an FRC robot. From my understanding and observations I have seen very very few robots that incorporated a Gyroscope flywheel into their robot's design.None in the past, and a select few this year. I would love to know how it is a copy of anything previously done in this competition."

[BurtGummer]

Originally Posted by JamJam263

Very true. Ironically we used a gyroscope sensor on the Gyroscope (flywheel)

So let me rephrase what i said before:

"Please inform me of how a Gyroscope flywheel is anything that you normally see on an FRC robot. From my understanding and observations I have seen very very few robots that incorporated a Gyroscope flywheel into their robot's design.None in the past, and a select few this year. I would love to know how it is a copy of anything previously done in this competition."

/Agree

We were the other team, 3020, who had a Control Moment Gyroscope on our robot. Now, it wasn't 22 pounds and it couldn't flip the robot 180 degrees, but it did affect steering. The award was well deserved if the team had a gyro. Unfortunately one of our team members spoke to a judge about the gyroscope on ours, and had no idea how it worked so he decided to throw BS out, which sounds like how they determined who got the award. I'm glad that 263 go it though, and not a team with a less innovative device.

Now, if I remember correctly, 1717 got an award for crab drive. Correct me if I'm wrong though. I will admit, I'm a fan of 1717, and their crab drive was working beautifully.

[Steve_Alaniz]

Originally Posted by Andrew Y.

so the way your saying it, a team should not and can not do anything during the off season? shoot....then almost all the chairmans teams and all the teams who go do outreach and put it in their presentations are "cheaters" aka" rule breakers"

Wow you certainly have a chip on your shoulder! What I am saying is that the judges used improper criteria FOR THE ROOKIE AWARD... I never said anything about veteran teams and chairman's awards, but you seem determined to make me an evil person by trying to twist my meaning.
The discussion has centered around WHEN are you considered a rookie team. FIRST seems to define that as the start of the season and that was Jan 3rd, of this year. SO that would imply that they should consider the rookie season activities starting on Jan 3rd in determining this award. And may I point out... 3091 WAS helping FLL/FTC during that time so little has changed as far as that goes.
I never said anything about cheating OR that team 3091 did not deserve the award.. but that the reasons cited by Woodie, activities over the summer, were inappropriate for a rookie award. If anything, this was a disservice by whoever wrote the speech, to team 3091.
I think you need to read carefully before you comment. I recognize that this is a touchy subject but I believe FIRST needs to clarify all this rookie stuff.... there were 30+ other rookie teams at Atlanta, some of whom had just managed to convince their schools to back them and did a fantastic job of promoting FIRST in other ways. I don't believe it was fair to them to have an unknown bar set that forced them to be retroactive to include their previous year's activities to a time they may not have even known they would field a team.
But hey this is just my opinion. I can't change the ruling nor would I want to. I DO believe I have a valid point that should be addressed for future consideration. ( I personally wanted to see team 3020 win it... that gyro was awesome!)

[Gary Fields]

[quote=EricH;852427]There were. If the practice fields were being run as practice rounds, then I think FIRST made the biggest mistake ever. (<G14> not excepted.)[/QUOTE

FIRST tried something new this year, wireless control of the robots on the practice field. In years past robots were required to be tethered.

The wireless operations required having set practiced rounds, and safety required not having people on the field while the robots were moving....It does not require a lot of thought to realize that you don't want people to get hit by a 130lb robot going full speed down the field. I don't know about you, but it is not worth getting hit, to make an adjustment. To get a prospective on how dangerous the practice fields were, more trailers were damaged on the 2 practice fields, than were damaged in competition on all 5 fields.

I for one, because of all the comments made here, and comments, abuse, and the non-GP treatment that was given practice field volunteers, am going to recommend that FIRST goes back to the all robots must be tethered while on the practice field.

Please remember the volunteers were running the fields as they were instructed. Ask yourself.....Did you treat those volunteers as you would have liked to be treated? I witnessed on more than one occasion mentors verbally abusing the volunteers running the fields. This should be unacceptable to all of us. Instead of criticizing the volunteers you should be thanking them!

To illustrate some of the non-GP actions....While repairing one of the trailers on the Curie/Archimedes practice field I set down a wrench, & a socket wrench (My own tools.) on the sign up table. A volunteer was dealing with a mentor, and need my help to answer a question. Turned around to pick them up less than a minute later, and they were gone.

I hope that all of you who found time to criticize how the practice fields were run, will find time to volunteer at a practice field next year.

[BurtGummer]

I don't think people are complaining about how they were run by volunteers. We are talking about not having a field were we could just test stuff on the regolith without having to sign up for a match. We know it isn't the volunteers fault....it was the organization by FIRST. Not having a regolith surface available for testing like at regionals was a big mistake.

I brought a 100 foot ethernet cable because i thought there would be a practice area where they would be required to be tethered.

[Blue_Mist]

Something interesting I noticed about the Chairman's Award winners (Congratulations 236 TechnoTicks!); do they get any view of the field? It looks like it is near impossible to see the action where they were currently situated. In my opinion, it would be unfair to place the team where they could not see the field. I mean, personally, I think the robots are an awesome part of FIRST.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Gary Fields

FIRST tried something new this year, wireless control of the robots on the practice field. In years past robots were required to be tethered.

I guess one of the problems was that the teams didn't know that ahead of time....

Maybe there could be one wireless practice field, and one tethered? As long as it's described ahead of time, I think teams could adapt.

[Brian C]

Originally Posted by Dale

This is the first game I can recall where robots are scoring on other robots. Normally the robots are all working with a neutral game piece and scoring with it on some disinterested structure.

2002 comes to mind. Playing pieces were soccer balls. 3 trailers started in the center of the field and were approx 180lbs (empty). Most teams chose to either tow or clamp to the trailers. Others chose to harvest balls and then dump into the trailer.

[EricH]

Gary, I wasn't even AT the Championships this year. In the past and at the regionals, it's been, bring a tether and join the line/get a block of time. It shouldn't require a lot of thought to realize that teams might want the regional practice field setup, not a setup that is Thursday every day when something just needs a minor software tweak and repeatability testing. That's what I'm calling a mistake.

Steve, when does FIRST change your status from "rookie" to veteran? Right after the Championship, right, at least officially? I.e., at the end of the season? So, logically, the year begins in late April. Therefore, summer counts.

But when does the "rookie" status begin? That is a tough question. When you sign up as an FRC team? Then you have a wide spread of time for rookies to get something going. When registration opens, all teams that haven't competed before are rookies? That would be more fair, but then you have a gap of several months with no rookies, only "pre-rookies". Right after Championship, when the previous rookies are now veterans (sophomore-type)? That makes more sense, but they're still "pre-rookies" all through the summer.

It's a tough call, and not one I'd want to make.

Brian, the trailers weren't assigned to an individual team and were also scored on when no robot was attached. They were neutral; the only time they counted was in a given zone. I'm not quite sure that counts.