Lessons Learned - The Negative

[MrForbes]

There are two types of gyroscopes...the sensor that comes in the KoP, and the type of heavy spinning disk that a few teams put on their robot.

[JamJam263]

Originally Posted by squirrel

There are two types of gyroscopes...the sensor that comes in the KoP, and the type of heavy spinning disk that a few teams put on their robot.

Very true. Ironically we used a gyroscope sensor on the Gyroscope (flywheel)

So let me rephrase what i said before:

"Please inform me of how a Gyroscope flywheel is anything that you normally see on an FRC robot. From my understanding and observations I have seen very very few robots that incorporated a Gyroscope flywheel into their robot's design.None in the past, and a select few this year. I would love to know how it is a copy of anything previously done in this competition."

[BurtGummer]

Originally Posted by JamJam263

Very true. Ironically we used a gyroscope sensor on the Gyroscope (flywheel)

So let me rephrase what i said before:

"Please inform me of how a Gyroscope flywheel is anything that you normally see on an FRC robot. From my understanding and observations I have seen very very few robots that incorporated a Gyroscope flywheel into their robot's design.None in the past, and a select few this year. I would love to know how it is a copy of anything previously done in this competition."

/Agree

We were the other team, 3020, who had a Control Moment Gyroscope on our robot. Now, it wasn't 22 pounds and it couldn't flip the robot 180 degrees, but it did affect steering. The award was well deserved if the team had a gyro. Unfortunately one of our team members spoke to a judge about the gyroscope on ours, and had no idea how it worked so he decided to throw BS out, which sounds like how they determined who got the award. I'm glad that 263 go it though, and not a team with a less innovative device.

Now, if I remember correctly, 1717 got an award for crab drive. Correct me if I'm wrong though. I will admit, I'm a fan of 1717, and their crab drive was working beautifully.

[Brian C]

Originally Posted by JamJam263

From my understanding and observations I have seen very very few robots that incorporated a Gyroscope flywheel into their robot's design.None in the past, and a select few this year. I would love to know how it is a copy of anything previously done in this competition."

Glad to see you got the Xerox award at in Atlanta, Maybe they would have been more impressed with the "flame job" you did at SBPLI?

[Nawaid Ladak]

Originally Posted by ebarker

FIRST clearly understands the issue of teams folding. They have also stated with abundant regularity that teams need to learn how to build sustainable organizations. Your team is responsible for its financial well being, NOT FIRST.

Thats understandable, but when you lose mentor support/school sponsor support, thats a whole different thing, FIRST needs to make this appealing to schoolteachers and make it worthwhile for the teachers to stay after their scheduled hours. A lot of teams fold because of funding, or a ridiculusly high percentage of their kids are graduated the previous year. or just overall support for the program has donwhill.

Originally Posted by KF987

I agree with you here, FIRST needs to go to district events nation wide, I know team density in some states is too low like Nevada to have district events, they could have a west coast district where AZ, NV, CA, & UT can go and compete in any district event with in the four states and then have a "West Coast Championship" I think that would be really fun and is a possible solution.

-Keaton

I wouldn't say district events nationwide. I live in Florida, where we currently only have 43 teams. I don't think a district system would work here. You just don't have the density of teams. I would rather see SuperRegionals pop up like the Greater Toronto Regional in 2006, an event with two fields where up to 128 teams can compete would be something worth attending.... even if your team doesn't qualify for championships. I'd like to hear from the teams that only went to district events (not state or championship) and get their experience compared to regional events.

Originally Posted by JamJam263

Very true. Ironically we used a gyroscope sensor on the Gyroscope (flywheel)

So let me rephrase what i said before:

"Please inform me of how a Gyroscope flywheel is anything that you normally see on an FRC robot. From my understanding and observations I have seen very very few robots that incorporated a Gyroscope flywheel into their robot's design.None in the past, and a select few this year. I would love to know how it is a copy of anything previously done in this competition."

I didn't mean to offend the team that won the Xerox creativity award, so please if i did offend you, im sorry

What i was trying to say was, usually when i hear the Xerox Creativity award, i usually have this "wow" type of moment, like, "did some tea really think of that crazy idea, and it really worked?", this year, it seemed like that "wow" factor wasn't there. im sure many teams thought of the gyroscope. not all of them thought it would work, thus they ditched it. you guys stuck to it and made it work for you. That deserves to be awarded. but as i said above, it just didn't bring in that "wow/gasp" factor

[BurtGummer]

Originally Posted by Nawaid Ladak

Thats understandable, but when you lose mentor support/school sponsor support, thats a whole different thing, FIRST needs to make this appealing to schoolteachers and make it worthwhile for the teachers to stay after their scheduled hours. A lot of teams fold because of funding, or a ridiculusly high percentage of their kids are graduated the previous year. or just overall support for the program has donwhill.



I wouldn't say district events nationwide. I live in Florida, where we currently only have 43 teams. I don't think a district system would work here. You just don't have the density of teams. I would rather see SuperRegionals pop up like the Greater Toronto Regional in 2006, an event with two fields where up to 128 teams can compete would be something worth attending.... even if your team doesn't qualify for championships. I'd like to hear from the teams that only went to district events (not state or championship) and get their experience compared to regional events.



I didn't mean to offend the team that won the Xerox creativity award, so please if i did offend you, im sorry

What i was trying to say was, usually when i hear the Xerox Creativity award, i usually have this "wow" type of moment, like, "did some tea really think of that crazy idea, and it really worked?", this year, it seemed like that "wow" factor wasn't there. im sure many teams thought of the gyroscope. not all of them thought it would work, thus they ditched it. you guys stuck to it and made it work for you. That deserves to be awarded. but as i said above, it just didn't bring in that "wow/gasp" factor

I didn't get to look around at Atlanta, but what other teams would you consider having that wow factor? Personally I consider a 22 pound disk rotating at 1400rpm, or ours a 7lb disk at 5200 rpm a 'wow' device. Getting something like a control moment gyroscope to work is not only more difficult than you think, but it takes ALOT of careful building. With such a high speed and high energy device, safety is a huge concern. It's more "Wow" than a crab drive imo.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Originally Posted by BurtGummer

I didn't get to look around at Atlanta, but what other teams would you consider having that wow factor? Personally I consider a 22 pound disk rotating at 1400rpm, or ours a 7lb disk at 5200 rpm a 'wow' device. Getting something like a control moment gyroscope to work is not only more difficult than you think, but it takes ALOT of careful building. With such a high speed and high energy device, safety is a huge concern. It's more "Wow" than a crab drive imo.

thanks for making my point for me. there was no wow factor to begin with. FIRST gave us size limitations, specific wheels that we couldn't tamper with, and a half page checklist on BUMPERS!!! this honestly took all the creativity out of the game... you couldn't have a robot that would intentionally tip it's trailer over, you couldn't have a robot that could remove moon rocks from it's trailer, you couldn't really use omni wheels. thus, out of the smoke came four designs that succeeded.... i've seen MUCH more variety than this in previous years game..... heck, all you have to do is look back to last year or the year before and you would understand exactly what im talking about.

I'll give you the fact that they won with a gyroscope, and that's something difficult to do, what i meant was there was potential for SO MUCH MORE creativity and yet, FIRST made sure we stayed inside the box.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Nawaid Ladak

Thats understandable, but when you lose mentor support/school sponsor support, thats a whole different thing, FIRST needs to make this appealing to schoolteachers and make it worthwhile for the teachers to stay after their scheduled hours. A lot of teams fold because of funding, or a ridiculusly high percentage of their kids are graduated the previous year. or just overall support for the program has donwhill.

It isn't FIRST's job to make this appealing enough to school teachers. It is the job of teams to communicate the value of FIRST programs to policy makers including the general public that this is an important program.

Teams should help policy makers and educators learn how to embrace FIRST programs as a critical co-cirricular activity that reinforces classroom learning. Far too often the educational establishment view robotics as a "club' and not as a serious adjunct to learning.

At this past Championship the message was clearly stated. Corporations, Foundations, students and volunteers have donated an enormous sum of money and effort to promote STEM education. This group has voted with their time and money. This vote serves as a clear statement of dissatisfaction of the methods of how STEM education is currently taught.

Institutions do not like to be told they are wrong. They have to go through the Kubla-Ross stages of grief as they process this information. If FIRST'ers persist these institutions will eventually get the message and you will be able to ask them to build into their structures proper teacher stipends and other support resources.

Transforming the public culture and attitudes, including the institutional attitude is precisely the goal of FIRST.