Sitting down during matches

[Fe_Will]

Originally Posted by EricH

Without a designated scouting area (which no regional has, to my knowledge), the scouts sit with their teams.

OR has a designated area with table and chairs... 2 team members at a time and you get power. Its center about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom.

[Molten]

There is something that is repeatedly overlooked in this thread:

If your front and center and sitting, you can't see the whole field. In fact, depending on what side your on, you can't see anything over the judges/refs. This leads them to stand. Next, the second row stands. Then the third. It continues until you have the problem you see today. The only way to overcome this is to have the stands about 6 feet off the ground. Some regionals are this way(such as the buckeye), however others(such as the boilermaker) do not.

Now, if you really want to see every match with a great view, watch the webcast. Most regionals have them and you can see exactly what's happening regardless of the 'wall' in front of you or the 'jerks' behind you. I understand that you will miss some things, but you will catch most of it. Also, a laptop is not necessary for this, try the tv next to the rankings post screen. It has the video on it and almost nobody is down there to be in the way.

[EricH]

For those saying that the screen is "good enough" (not exact words, but I get that impression) for the scouts to use: It Is Not.

Why not? Well, let me put it this way. You want to count how many moon rocks are being scored by 6 teams. That's a minimum of 2 scouts, and probably 6. Now, the cameras to the screen are nice, except for 3 things:

1. They tend to zoom in on stationary items, like somebody's sponsor panel or a robot that is on its back.
2. If you were watching a football game on TV and the camera cut away from the QB to the WR right as the QB was about to throw to the WR, you'd get annoyed, wouldn't you? Yeah. That's about what happens every few seconds in FRC.
3. The best shot, the long distance one right at the middle, isn't clear enough for anything other than a general idea.

The score panel doesn't help either.

In short, until the FRC camera crews improve their content and quality, you can't use the screen for any kind of accurate scouting.

Look, I KNOW you guys want to stand up and cheer. As long as you aren't doing it during a match, with the exception of exciting parts, I don't care when you do it. But when the match begins, sit down and let the scouts do their thing. IF there's a scouting area (and to this point, I've only heard of 2/47 or so), then that's fine.

But, I would like to note: the 2 I've heard of, I wouldn't want to scout from. One sounds like it blocks off a fair portion of the field (unless it's higher or more towards field center than I think it is) and the other only allows 2 per team at a time, which isn't enough. I don't know about you, but I had a hard enough time scouting 2 back in 2004, and after that, my team went to 6 scouts so we only had 1 each. So be warned: not all scouts will be in the designated areas.


Here's the thing about moving, while I'm here. Because you choose to display your team spirit by standing all through match, anybody behind you can't see what you're cheering about. So they move to another area, or stand up (continuing a chain reaction that makes it to the scouts of another team that sits about 10 rows back, and subsequently being asked to sit down by said team). Then another, similar team comes up. So the people move back, as you're now sitting down. Quite aside from any people who have difficulty walking/standing, especially on stairs, you've inconvenienced them. They also don't get to see what you're cheering for, because they can't see around you. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be inspired by that...


flyingcrayons, I'd have to agree: The easiest solution would be to have a block of seats with good, clear vision of the field that is only for scouts, VIPs, and/or judges, which combination the block is for depending solely on venue. There is only one issue, and that is that some scouts will want to sit with their teams, or that the scouts are the large majority of the team in the stands, so the team wants to sit with the scouts.

Second easiest? An easy-access team cheering area near/on the floor. Keeps the cheering teams down low, mainly out of the direct line of sight of the scouts.


To the teams that like to stand through matches, talk to your scouts. What do they want? Would they prefer being in front of or behind your team during one of your matches? Then assume that most scouts will want that situation, and plan accordingly. If you don't have scouts of your own, borrow another team's for a few minutes on Thursday if you can to help you make the call. Also look into cheering sections on the floor.

[Chief Pride]

In Atlanta I had told my team to sit down while we were on the field because I knew we were obstructing the view of the teams behind us. It was hard for them to remember as when they become a cadet, and in OCCRA it is one of the first things they learn. To always stand, and cheer on your drive team, give them encouragement.

That being said, I feel very sharply about this subject. I seem to go in the direct opposite direction, and feel that the name of this thread should be "Extremely rude statements made when asking a team to sit down". I was visiting a friend on another team when I overheard someone from a team behind them say something not only unGP, but something so terrible it cannot even be repeated in this thread without getting deleted almost immediately. It was along these lines:

[Team standing] if you do not sit down I'm going to ... r..e you

This is so unacceptable and I am very surprised that the team being abused did not take a much higher action against this... In my opinion, NO ONE has the right to say that to someone else, even if they are standing.

[Mrs.Drake343]

I am a little sensitive about this subject also. I love to stand up during our matches and have no problem with people standing up in front of me. I just deal with it. I admire kids who have lots of team spirit and want to show it off.

Now to the sensitive part, Last year a gentleman was upset with our team for standing and decided to "show us" by actually standing on the arms of the seats in front of us during one of our matches. Needless to say I had steam coming out of my ears I was so mad. I was very proud of our team for not saying anything to that guy.

As far as scouting, Our scouts have never complained about not being able to see (that I know of). They just go with the flow. If it is such a big problem and sitting lower in the stands is a problem, why not ask the Georgia Dome to open the next level to scouts only. As someone mentioned earlier, provide teams with passes and put a guard there to only let those with passes in that section.

I actually don't think I could physically sit down during one of our matches. I am so nervous that I think I would explode just sitting there. I also have two smaller children who have never complained about not being able to see. They just deal with it. But we do need to be aware of anyone with a disability that cannot stand. Make sure you never block their view. But the rest of us have two good legs and can make adjustments for the kids cheering on their robot.

[Jreed129]

I have mixed feelings about this to as many people here seem to have....

I did most of the video scouting for my team so trying to get footage while in the stands (no matter how high up you could get) wasn't always the best. Most of the time teams did take notice and try to stay out of the way but for the ones that didn't your team doesn't get scouted as well because we can not go back and look at matches and see what happened the night before selections. There are a lot of things going on at every competition it would be impossible to remember how teams do their first match, their last match and every match of the day.

As for my team, we stand for every match we are in. As long as I have been on the team it has been that way. Also I do not remember anyone on our team getting yelled at to sit down.

Personally I look at, I want to stand when my team is up and because of that I understand if you want to stand when your team is up. if I block your view I am sorry, if you block mine I do not mind, yes it is bother some, but nothing is going to get solved by yelling at you to move or sit down. It is a 5 minute time frame which I can't seen, but I can still guess at what is going on by your reactions to what you can see (i.e. you cheer = your alliance is doing good(scoring))

[ttldomination]

I support the no standing thing and agree that it is annoying when teams stand up in front of my team to watch their matches and cheer on their team.

What really annoyed me in Galileo was that we were sitting in front a team, and they proceeded to rudely ask us to take our seats, and understanding that they wanted to watch the match, my friend and I took our respective seats, but then when that particular team's match came up, all of the other team's members proceeded to stand up.

But there are too many sides to this argument. You have people who are ... small who stand up and then that causes other people to stand up. You have people who are spirit oriented and they stand up for their match. You have people who simply can't see above other people and they stand up just to watch.

There's too many causes and in my opinion I don't think this issue is every going to go away.

[Pat Arnold]

Fan etiquette affects all spectator events (& I doubt we'll resolve it here):

From a Hockey site:

Etiquette has become a 'bigger' problem it seems in our non-polite society. Many folks are just 'in it for themselves' and could give two hoots about those around them, or in your case, directly behind them.

To directly respond to your question: their behavior was rude, inconsiderate and intolerable. I could tolerate someone standing after a goal is scored --- maybe for a shootout or something real special, like the 'unleash the fury'. You may have to stand up yourselves, which will make those behind you angry, and in-turn maybe someone will tell the original offenders to 'sit down'. The only time I stand up while the puck is in play is when there is a breakaway. That’s it. Any other time please stay in seat.

From a Baseball article:

There’s nothing like watching a base runner steamroll around third in the bottom of the fifth trying to leg out an inside-the-park home run and seeing nothing but crack. I’m not talking about the echoing crack of a speeding ball popping the catcher’s mitt; I’m talking about the crack of the dude in front of you jumping up like a whack-a-mole just as the violent runner-catcher collision happens.

Standing up to watch a possible scoring play develop is understandable, but only if it’s in the top or bottom of the ninth and your team needs the run. Understand I’m not discouraging standing up all together, but standing up during a live play anytime earlier than the ninth is a no-no.

It is hoped that all spectators and FIRST participants strive to be courteous and permitting others to see what they are at an event to view seems a basic courtesy. Standing when your team or a match score is announced, but not during the match itself, seems a reasonable compromise.

Edit: Please forgive my shouting; I'm very visual & tend to make specific thoughts bold in my lengthy posts. (Yes, another etiquette issue!)

[Don Wright]

Obviously this is kind of a sticky topic, with some people that I really respect having a differing opinion than I.

So, the only thing I ask is when this does come up at a competition, and there is "discussion" going on between teams about this, let's be civil to each other and try and find a compromise.

So instead of coming to a team and just asking you to sit down, I would like to ask "Hey...we can't see behind you...how can we work together so that we can get our work done, make it so our little Guerrillas can see, yet allow you guys show the spirit and support that you want?"

Would this work?

[Alan Anderson]

I have no problem with your team standing to cheer, waving (small) banners and flags, and generally overflowing with team spirit -- as long as you do it only when it doesn't interfere with people trying to see what is going on during a match. But I'm firmly in the "sit down during matches" camp. It has been pointed out many times that the players don't notice, and can't be expected to look for, teams standing and cheering while the game is underway. The only thing standing up can accomplish is to block others' view of the field.

There is no benefit to standing during match play, other than selfish pleasure at showing your support. There is a demonstrated negative. Please have respect for those sitting behind you, and let them watch the game without being unnecessarily burdened by your actions. If you intend not to sit, find a place where you won't be in front of anyone.

[Chris is me]

This is a particularly difficult problem because there's not really a GP way to tell a team to sit down.

Our team discussed this at a meeting and we all agreed to not stand up during any match unless people in front of them were blocking the view of our match or some other similar scenario. We also try to pick seating arrangements in front of teams we know don't stand up (or at least it worked out that way) or if we can on a balcony.

Basically the best thing you can really do is make a thread like this one and try to pass the word around to teams.

[JaneYoung]

There are some teams that are an absolute pleasure to sit beside, behind, around. On Galileo, there were many such teams and I was proud to be sitting among them. Two standouts were 111 and 67. I look forward to future competitions where these teams will be. Not only do they excel in leadership on the competition field but they excel everywhere else as well, including the stands.

Oh, and a couple of times, folks had to say 'down in front' to me. I tried to comply as best I could (even though YMCA made it a little iffy...).

[Dave Flowerday]

To those who think standing is so important, please consider another point (which I believe has already been made, but I'm restating it anyway):

Elderly/disabled people, visitors (people who are not associated with a team), and potential sponsors often sit in the back. This is because they arrive late and/or have difficulty making it down all the stairs and/or don't want to get in the way of the teams. These are the people whose view you are blocking when you stand up. Frankly, for the most part they are probably not interested in the competition enough to stand up the whole day and watch. For some older people and people with disabilities, standing really isn't even an option.

Would your grandmother be proud if you stood in front of her for the whole day and she couldn't see anything? Are you going to tell her to "deal with it" or "watch the webcast"? I'm not.

[Kmo]

I argee with Don. In the past when I was scotting many times we had a time right in front of us stand up during a match. Yes I understand that the match can get quite exciting but it wold be nice if they would quitly sit back down and allow the rest of the teams to scout.

We all know that scouting is very important during the FIRST competition and to lose some of that data due to interference is critical. I know if someone else was to ask our team to sit down we would do so just like we would want them to do the same for us.

This year the same thing happen. Even though I was on the drive team this year my team mates explain to me how difficult it was for them to see when the team in front of them wouldn't sit down. They asked if they could move to the side but none of them listen to him. Because of that they missed that one match.

So I have to say that I strongly agree with what Don is saying. We should be more considerate of others.

[Molten]

Perhaps we could have parts of the stands designated sitting only and others standing optional.

TO ALL SCOUTS: You are engineers. If you have a system that requires you to sit, and the situation requires you to stand...you need to adapt. Design a system that allows you to scout in a standing/sitting situation. Many teams scout while standing, it is very reasonable to figure out. I am in no way saying you should have to. I am just saying that this is more of the engineering spirit then to try change others. FIRST is about engineering, not politics.