New CRIO in the KOP next year?

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

Well, if I was a gambling man I would bet a HEFTY sum that we will NOT get another cRIO next year, AND that the registration/kit "price" will also NOT be reduced ...

Based on my conversations with many folks during the season, there is a very large and (temporarily?) quiet component of the full FIRST community that has exactly the same concern. If this is indeed ever revealed to be the plan, I hope that EVERYONE impacted by such a decision will let the FIRST Board Of Directors know loudly and clearly what they think. **

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

And, if the fact that the original KOP cRIOs were 100% donated should make a difference in next years team fees, then why were the fees not reduced this year??

Although the cRIO may have been donated, the rest of the new control system wasn't. We still had to pay for all the other parts, such as the speed controllers, power distribution boards, digital sidecars, breakout boards, cameras, routers, drivers stations, etc.). And for all those components that were custom-designed for the FRC competition, there was the cost of the development and production set-up for those items. Only a portion of the development costs were donated by the suppliers - the remainder had to be recovered from our registration fees.

-dave

** Because it will be the Board, not the FIRST staff, that will make this decision. Right now, the Board is seriously disconnected from the teams in FIRST. They don't understand how "small" costs like these really impact this community. There is little direct, personal understanding of the impact of their decisions on the teams. During the recent combined Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board meeting in Atlanta, the question was asked "how many of you work directly with a team and have experience as a mentor?" Out of the entire room of people, only one hand went up. I think that is a huge problem.



.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Based on my conversations with many folks during the season, there is a very large and (temporarily?) quiet component of the full FIRST community that has exactly the same concern. If this is indeed ever revealed to be the plan, I hope that EVERYONE impacted by such a decision will let the FIRST Board Of Directors know loudly and clearly what they think. **

Although the cRIO may have been donated, the rest of the new control system wasn't. We still had to pay for all the other parts, such as the speed controllers, power distribution boards, digital sidecars, breakout boards, cameras, routers, drivers stations, etc.). And for all those components that were custom-designed for the FRC competition, there was the cost of the development and production set-up for those items. Only a portion of the development costs were donated by the suppliers - the remainder had to be recovered from our registration fees.

-dave

** Because it will be the Board, not the FIRST staff, that will make this decision. Right now, the Board is seriously disconnected from the teams in FIRST. They don't understand how "small" costs like these really impact this community. There is little direct, personal understanding of the impact of their decisions on the teams. During the recent combined Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board meeting in Atlanta, the question was asked "how many of you work directly with a team and have experience as a mentor?" Out of the entire room of people, only one hand went up. I think that is a huge problem.



.

All right, how do we communicate with them?



Not sure how unreasonable it is, but setting up a program where each of them spends at least a weekend with a team might be a good experience.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

All right, how do we communicate with them?



Not sure how unreasonable it is, but setting up a program where each of them spends at least a weekend with a team might be a good experience.

More importantly, how can we get them on teams. Actively on teams, preferably not the well funded teams, the teams that struggle to find funding each year. Let them try to figure out how to afford a KoP AND how to keep students from having to pay for things because they can't. I dont say this out of spite or anger, merely because I want them to understand where we come from when we say it is too expensive.

Baring that, Adam has a good idea, at least give them a little bit of time with teams so they can see what the problems are.

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Based on my conversations with many folks during the season, there is a very large and (temporarily?) quiet component of the full FIRST community that has exactly the same concern. If this is indeed ever revealed to be the plan, I hope that EVERYONE impacted by such a decision will let the FIRST Board Of Directors know loudly and clearly what they think. **

Although the cRIO may have been donated, the rest of the new control system wasn't. We still had to pay for all the other parts, such as the speed controllers, power distribution boards, digital sidecars, breakout boards, cameras, routers, drivers stations, etc.). And for all those components that were custom-designed for the FRC competition, there was the cost of the development and production set-up for those items. Only a portion of the development costs were donated by the suppliers - the remainder had to be recovered from our registration fees.

-dave

** Because it will be the Board, not the FIRST staff, that will make this decision. Right now, the Board is seriously disconnected from the teams in FIRST. They don't understand how "small" costs like these really impact this community. There is little direct, personal understanding of the impact of their decisions on the teams. During the recent combined Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board meeting in Atlanta, the question was asked "how many of you work directly with a team and have experience as a mentor?" Out of the entire room of people, only one hand went up. I think that is a huge problem.



.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

All right, how do we communicate with them?



Not sure how unreasonable it is, but setting up a program where each of them spends at least a weekend with a team might be a good experience.

Weekend??? Try two to three weeks, or more. (I know that would be unrealistic to expect, but it would really give a good feel for reality.)

Adam, this is a fantastic idea!!! My concern is that the Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board would spend that time with many of the big name, well established, fully funded teams. That is well and good, but by no means represents the vast majority of the FIRST community. If we want them to see the full impact of making decisions, they need to observe the full range of teams that exist in FIRST. From the teams that are able to build two fully functional robots per year (one practice, one competition) to the teams that can barley get the KOP bot built and running in six weeks.

[sdcantrell56]

I think this is a great idea Adam. If we can't physically get the board members on a team, then maybe a forum should be set up and they be required to check it. On this forum we can discuss things like financial concerns and such. I know for our team and probably many teams, the KOP is pretty much useless except for the motors and controls. Now if the controls are not included the next year, we will be getting basically no extra value from the KOP and the $6000 entry fee will become even more steep when considering the value. Particularly with the district event showing that events can be run cheaper and teams can pay less to play more matches, every team should have this advantage, not just the teams who are fortunate enough to be located in Michigan.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by billbo911

Weekend??? Try two to three weeks, or more. (I know that would be unrealistic to expect, but it would really give a good feel for reality.)

Adam, this is a fantastic idea!!! My concern is that the Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board would spend that time with many of the big name, well established, fully funded teams. That is well and good, but by no means represents the vast majority of the FIRST community. If we want them to see the full impact of making decisions, they need to observe the full range of teams that exist in FIRST. From the teams that are able to build two fully functional robots per year (one practice, one competition) to the teams that can barley get the KOP bot built and running in six weeks.

Be very careful what you ask for. Because we (the teams) will end up paying for it.

It sounds like as FIRST has grown, it has fallen victim to the same mentality that large corporations in the US have. More specifically, the most problematic issue facing many of these companies today:

The 'management' believes that people can not be promoted internally to take leadership positions, and that oversite boards have to be "hired" from executives "at large". That boards of directors can be built from random personnel not suited or experienced in that business, or people who have very little stake in the success of that company.

I never understood why people in any particular industry would believe that someone from another industry, just because he has the word "Director" or "Manager" next to his name, would make a more effecitive employee and be worth more than someone who worked up through the ranks.

Why is FIRST's governing body not made of active Woodie Flowers Award winners?

[BiTurboS4]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Why is FIRST's governing body not made of active Woodie Flowers Award winners?

While I do respect most of the WFA winners, i'm not sure that would help matters much. Granted it would give some insight into the process that isn't there currently, but I just don't see it changing to terribly much.

On the other hand, perhaps the GDC could use a shake up, maybe the WFA would be better suited to rotate a few members through each season to keep things fresh.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I think it is important to note that at least three people on that list regularly attend FIRST events and do talk to as many teams as they can. These three are beyond those you recognize and see at the podium. The person who shows up in your pit and asks questions may actually be a board member.

[Wayne C.]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

All right, how do we communicate with them?

you write courteous letters that point out the issues and offer solutions. And you pray that somebody listens.

Recently a few of us in the NE did just that and we have a dialogue going. But the original response I was getting was akin to "well- you are the only one with problems"

If you never takes steps to solve problems you cannot just complain that they exist.

WC

[waialua359]

A customized KOP (say 3 options?) sounds like a great idea.
Even though teams get many donated items every year, I hate to see it go to waste where it just stockpiles somewhere.
We personally try to give away and lend teams the stuff we dont use every year, except motors of course............but there is still that problem of waste.

I realize that it is an additional cost to customize KOPs, but maybe with the weight saved in shipping a lighter box, it will offset it, with the hopes of providing a cRIO every year.

[MrForbes]

One slight problem with the customized KoP idea is that we don't know what we need until after we get the KoP....we build our robot to play the game, and the game is announced about the same time we get the kit, and we need a few days at least to figure out whether we want to use pneumatics, kit frame, etc.

As far as whether or not we want a new cRio for that year, it should be pretty easy to decide ahead of time (before signing up for the first regional).

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

All right, how do we communicate with them?
Not sure how unreasonable it is, but setting up a program where each of them spends at least a weekend with a team might be a good experience.

The Board of Directors that makes the decisions has a member listing here:
http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=52

The first 18 people on the list are the folks that matter. I would imagine that Googling around a little will get you some contact info.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

The Board of Directors that makes the decisions has a member listing here:
http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=52

The first 18 people on the list are the folks that matter. I would imagine that Googling around a little will get you some contact info.

You sir, just inspired me.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Dave,
If anyone ever asks, I have volunteered to share with anyone at First, the GDC included. I know that First is strapped for cash like the rest of us. However, my first concern is for students. Decisions should not be made without a thought of how it impacts them, first. That includes those who have not yet joined our ranks, the rookies of the future.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by dlavery

** Because it will be the Board, not the FIRST staff, that will make this decision. Right now, the Board is seriously disconnected from the teams in FIRST. They don't understand how "small" costs like these really impact this community. There is little direct, personal understanding of the impact of their decisions on the teams. During the recent combined Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board meeting in Atlanta, the question was asked "how many of you work directly with a team and have experience as a mentor?" Out of the entire room of people, only one hand went up. I think that is a huge problem.

I get this. For the 2009 season, I was not directly connected to a team and I could feel the disconnect develop over the season. Just.one.season. It doesn't take long for the disconnect to leave you completely out of touch with the reality of the team(s) and what they face/deal with every single day. Not every single day of build or every single day of competition - every single day. I hope I don't go through another year/another season of not being connected to a team. It will make me useless in areas of understanding the needs/priorities and struggles of the teams in the region I am in. In the bigger picture, a disconnect can create harm, chaos, and it can damage morale. Seriously.