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  #196   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-04-2009, 07:13
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Can we end this debate over what a rookie can do? Please read the rules on rookie criteria: http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc...t.aspx?id=6632

It only says what makes a rookie. It says nothing about what a rookie season is. The only time it references "season" is when it is talking about returning teams - if they have not competed in three previous seasons, they may regain their rookie status. The rules defining rookie status do not care if you've competed in other robot competitions, either inside or outside the FIRST umbrella. You could have done FLL, RoboFest, VEX, any number of things. As long as you have not competed in FRC before, you are a rookie. (There are additional rules for teams that have some members with previous experience in FRC.)

In the awards descriptions at http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...0%20Awards.pdf it says
Quote:
Rookie All-Star Award
Celebrates the rookie team exemplifying a young but strong partnership effort, as well as implementing the mission of FIRST to inspire students to learn more about science and technology.
It says the same thing in the manual:
Quote:
5.23 ROOKIE ALL-STAR AWARD
This award celebrates the rookie team exemplifying a young but strong partnership effort, as well as implementing the mission of FIRST to inspire students to learn more about science and technology.
NOTE: This is essentially the “Chairman’s Award for Rookie teams”. We encourage, but do not require, rookie teams to enter a Chairman’s Award submission relative to this award.
Nothing about seasons there.

When FIRST talks about the season starting at kickoff, they are usually talking about the build season. The build season is defined and has lots of rules about what you can and can't do before and after the season.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 11:43
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Bill Baedke View Post
7. Post the rules: If we are trying to get the public to come see the competition, we need to help them when they get there. Have a place at all Regionals and the Championship where a beginner could go to get a copy of the basics of the game (condensed to a small piece of paper). Have this place staffed with volunteer student team members to answer questions. Those students would have a complete set of rules, be knowledgeable, and be FIRST team members so they should be able answer most questions, and more importantly express their enthusiasm.
This little "rules booklet" was in the first page of every Lunacy book handed out. I saw them at both regionals I went to, I don't know about Atlanta though.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 21:28
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
This little "rules booklet" was in the first page of every Lunacy book handed out. I saw them at both regionals I went to, I don't know about Atlanta though.
I remember seeing signage near the pit entrance explaining all three games; I suspect they were in the Championship programs as well, though I never got my hands on one.

Speaking of rules, one place of improvement I could see: throw a current copy of the manual in the case for pit admin. Having one at the scoring table on Curie was a life-saver (show of hands, how many people not named Lavery remembered by heart the rules for backup robots on Einstein at the Championship?); having them in the pits as well would be handy for those quick double-checks.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:06
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

One thing I think needs to be addressed: the college recruiters would be better served with hours on Saturday, or extend the hours during Thursday and Friday. Many of the pit crew/drive team/scouts were unable to avail themselves of the college reps due to team responsibilities...just one person's point oh two...
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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:27
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Billfred View Post
Speaking of rules, one place of improvement I could see: throw a current copy of the manual in the case for pit admin. Having one at the scoring table on Curie was a life-saver (show of hands, how many people not named Lavery remembered by heart the rules for backup robots on Einstein at the Championship?); having them in the pits as well would be handy for those quick double-checks.
OK, on that one I will admit that even Aidan and I had to refer to the manual just to be sure our memories were correct.

Anyway, you make an excellent point. Having current, complete versions of the manual in several locations (pit admin, scoring tables, inspection stations, practice fields, etc) could help alleviate several opportunities for added stress. Or even better, an updated version of the Lunacy iPhone app (or whatever next year's game name turns out to be) that is complete with all the rules (including illustrations and reference links) and updates automatically every time FIRST issues a rules update.

And then include an iPod Touch in every KOP so the teams can read the Manual. Call it the "FIRST Robotics On-line Display Object (FRODO)". Which could be an element of a larger system of electronic manuals, known as the "Student's Handheld Internet Reference Encyclopedia (SHIRE)."

OK, maybe not.

-dave


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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:42
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

I have to admit it was kind of hard to read the rules that I had in my pocket on my USB drive all weekend....

Nice acronyms.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:42
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by dlavery View Post
And then include an iPod Touch in every KOP so the teams can read the Manual. Call it the "FIRST Robotics On-line Display Object (FRODO)". Which could be an element of a larger system of electronic manuals, known as the "Student's Handheld Internet Reference Encyclopedia (SHIRE)."
Now just add the Self Automated Manual Wielding Intense Search Engines (SAMWISE) and Manual Offering Rule Directives Overridden Regularly (MORDOR) to keep us constantly updated on the status of bumper rules and the like. Also the GDC would be referred to as Supervisors Acting Upon Rule Obstructing Ne'er-do-wells (SAURON). (It should be noted I don't think people who bring up rule issues are Ne'r Do Wells)

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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:45
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

I do have a negative!

Why did this game feature and emphasize camera tracking of non-lit targets when lighting conditions were inconsistent between regionals? Hell, in Atlanta the lighting conditions changed with the number of clouds in the sky and this screwed up robots. Vision Targets should be lit if they're going to be featured.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:48
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

The camera is in the kit mainly to keep the programmers busy.

It was successfull for that purpose, we spent about 4 weeks of programming time getting it working well in the shop, used it for one practice match at our first regional, tried to calibrate it that day, and didn't use it the rest of the season. Finally took it off Friday morning in Atlanta.

Kind of like that lead screw thing, and the energy chain. It keeps students busy.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:57
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by dlavery View Post
OK, on that one I will admit that even Aidan and I had to refer to the manual just to be sure our memories were correct.
There's another point to be made here...

If a pair of GDC members, one of whom is the Head Ref, have to refer to the manual, that they wrote, to make a call, because they aren't sure they remember the rule, then it just might be that the said tome is getting a little thick...

Admittedly, the backup robot rules are in the "obscure" Section 9, which tends to be overlooked in the rush to get to Sections 6, 7, and 8.
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Unread 23-04-2009, 00:19
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by iCurtis View Post
I beg to disagree. Most of these games weren't entirely one dimensional, and I'd say 2007 definitely had two dimensions.

2005- Stack tetras on top of goals or place tetras under goals
2006- Shoot balls through upper goal or deposit them through lower goal
2007- Place Ringers or lift robots. (This game was definitely not one dimensional
2008- Hurdle Trackball over overpass or Herd Trackball under overpass or race around the track
2009- Put balls in Goal

Granted, in 2005 good teams all stacked. In 2006 though, 195 and 1902 rose to fame playing exclusively with the lower goal. Other teams may have too, but my memory is starting to fail me. 2007 definitely was not one dimensional, as those bonus points for lifting robots were important, and lifting robots was not an easy task. 2008, most good robots did hurdle. However, at GSR a herder (58) captained an alliance all the way to the finals, and 148 played an integral role in the RoboSimChickens Championship victory. This year, we all did the same thing though.

That said, I'd love to play another 2004-esque game.
(It seems FIRST Frenzy is quickly acquiring some sort of cult status as a magical perfect game around here...)
True true, however, in 2005, 2006 (Sans the end game ramp), 2007, and 2008, only 1 of the field elements was used to score. that is aside from the thing you actually score on.
in 04, you had the 2x ball, you had the kick balls, I think but cant remember if there was a bonus for winning auto (wouldnt mind leaving that in the shed bc we cant get a great auto yet haha...), moving goals, stationary goals, stairs, and the bar.

It really makes for fun strategizing. especially if you are going against a team like 71 who collected the balls after they fell from above the driver station, could 2x i believe, and hang from teh bar.

It makes for a more fun game to watch and as a tour guide to many VIPs throughout the years, it makes it more fun for potential sponsors to watch.

and yeah,
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Unread 23-04-2009, 00:29
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
There's another point to be made here...

If a pair of GDC members, one of whom is the Head Ref, have to refer to the manual, that they wrote, to make a call, because they aren't sure they remember the rule, then it just might be that the said tome is getting a little thick...

Admittedly, the backup robot rules are in the "obscure" Section 9, which tends to be overlooked in the rush to get to Sections 6, 7, and 8.
I disagree with this. By definition the Einstein backup rules are only relevant to a very small number of teams one time a year. It is important to have a rule for this procedure in case it is needed, but I am perfectly fine referees needing to reference a manual to recall this rule.
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Unread 23-04-2009, 07:10
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

I disagree as well. The important thing is that Dave and Aidan knew that special rules exist for Einstein backups, and knew where to find them.

All teams should have someone who knows the manual that well.
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Unread 23-04-2009, 07:37
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Kind of like that lead screw thing, and the energy chain. It keeps students busy.
Keep them under lock and key !! Otherwise you can't get anything done. Ha Ha .

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Unread 23-04-2009, 17:05
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Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
Why did this game feature and emphasize camera tracking of non-lit targets when lighting conditions were inconsistent between regionals? Hell, in Atlanta the lighting conditions changed with the number of clouds in the sky and this screwed up robots. Vision Targets should be lit if they're going to be featured.
I'm going to echo this.
If FIRST is going to provide teams with an expensive piece of technology and even more expensive controls designed to work with it, they should ensure that said technology should be not only possible, but plausible to work with at each and every event/venue.
To the best of my knowledge, only a single team scored in autonomous during the entirety of the Championship event (40). A number of teams who had previously used successful tracking code (2056, 1712, 612, etc) were unable to successfully accomplish the feat in the Georgia dome to changing lighting (both from the skylights and the actual arena lights) and the color similarities between the red seats and the pink vision target.
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