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Unread 22-04-2009, 17:55
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Re: AM' swerve modules

Somethings are better left off andymark. If AM came out with a swerve module then teams would learn little from putting it on their robot. In my opinion the less items used that are right off the shelf the better. If that is how most robots are built, what lessons are learn building it other than wether the product works or not. Just a thought.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 17:59
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Re: AM' swerve modules

There are many teams that don't have the ability to make their own serve modules. I think this would be a great way to even out the playing field.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 18:09
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Re: AM' swerve modules

After doing our first swerve/crab drive this year.
The easiest part of this type of drive is the module.

The real difficulty is in the control of the modules.
Figuring out how to mount the proper type of encoder and using them to allow the operator to use the drive efficiently is the toughest part.

We will continue to refine both our module design and our control algorithms.

As far as AM making them... I am not sure if this is a good idea.
For purely business reasons.... I am not sure how many would really get sold.
They would also be pretty pricey...

The other issue is "leveling the playing field" ... I guess the question is where does it end? Should we all just be bolting together AM or other pieces and making a robot?

We learned a great deal this year by designing and implementing this type of drive. At Atlanta we saw several different versions... some were very simple and worked very well.

In the pit next to us we made new friends with team 1927 from Biloxi Mississippi... they had a really nice, simply made swerve module very similar to ours that they had come up with. Ours was more complex and required CNC work... there are many designs... all of them worked...

If anyone wants our design they are welcome to it. We will make it available to anyone that asks.

I do make the warning though... the control is the hard part.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 18:19
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Re: AM' swerve modules

When you talk to Andy it seems like drive gear boxes are even hard to sell to FIRST teams as far as providing technical support for them. I have said the same thing too many times that the hard part about a swerve is controlling it. As far as AM selling them, they do just fine without them and have many great products. I don't see any reason for them to go and start selling swerve modules, when many of the teams that use them have enough machining capability already to make them. Swerve modules are custom machined parts the kind companies charge a lot of money to machine, people would be paying an arm and a leg if a company was out there selling swerve modules. Then, there is the issue of having to have x amount of them on hand without even knowing if your going to sell them if you decide to offer them. In conclusion, I am sure AM could design a swerve module but actually having a big enough market to sell them is the question. Mr.O'connor and Bob all have good point about this leading too not as many good robots also, case in point teams using the AM mechanums when they first came out.

My two cents,
Drew
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Last edited by techtiger1 : 22-04-2009 at 18:22. Reason: mechanum case needed to be said
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Unread 22-04-2009, 18:26
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Re: AM' swerve modules

good opinions' guys!

I was thinking along the same lines too..

maybe not the entire module, but more like having just the "box"

I agree that This may not be a "great" idea..just something that COULD be nice for teams that have limited machining capabilities....
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Last edited by gorrilla : 22-04-2009 at 18:28.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 18:35
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Re: AM' swerve modules

I too agree with Art. Eh, it would be kewl to have the swerve modules for sale but think about the cost and the effort to do it. Maybe the housing of the swerve/module. I like their current line of parts.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 18:58
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Re: AM' swerve modules

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorrilla View Post
good opinions' guys!

I was thinking along the same lines too..

maybe not the entire module, but more like having just the "box"

I agree that This may not be a "great" idea..just something that COULD be nice for teams that have limited machining capabilities....
It would be great, but most teams end up finding a veteran team and asking them for help or fiinding a local sponsor that can do the CNC work for them.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 20:49
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Re: AM' swerve modules

If AM were to sell a complete swerve module...

...Would it not fall under the following?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manual 8.3 Intro
However, COTS items that have been specifically designed as a solution to portion of the FIRST Robotics Competition challenge may or may not fit within the FRC intent, and must be carefully considered. If the item provides general functionality that can be utilized in any of several possible configurations or applications, then it is acceptable (as the teams will still have to design their particular application of the item). However, COTS items that provide a complete solution for a major ROBOT function (e.g. a complete manipulator assembly, pre-built pneumatics circuit, or full mobility system) that require no effort other than just bolting it on to the ROBOT are against the intent of the competition, and will not be permitted.
(emphasis mine)

Granted, you'd need 3-4 modules, but I could sure point out that all you need is one for steering...

Why are the AM gearboxes, etc, not violations of this? Because you could use a Supershifter or a Gen 2 on your arm or intake. It would take more engineering, but it can be done. Gear ratios still have to be calculated.

If AM sold a crab module, assembled or not, the team would bear the responsibility of showing that it had been designed into the robot's design. After a bit, teams would stop buying because of this (or because they prefer to make their own). Not exactly a profitable business venture.

There are two further things that I would like to note: 1) the rules may change for next year and 2) this paragraph has been the same for just about as long as I can remember.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 20:59
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Re: AM' swerve modules

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
If AM were to sell a complete swerve module...

...Would it not fall under the following?
(emphasis mine)

Granted, you'd need 3-4 modules, but I could sure point out that all you need is one for steering...

Why are the AM gearboxes, etc, not violations of this? Because you could use a Supershifter or a Gen 2 on your arm or intake. It would take more engineering, but it can be done. Gear ratios still have to be calculated.

If AM sold a crab module, assembled or not, the team would bear the responsibility of showing that it had been designed into the robot's design. After a bit, teams would stop buying because of this (or because they prefer to make their own). Not exactly a profitable business venture.

There are two further things that I would like to note: 1) the rules may change for next year and 2) this paragraph has been the same for just about as long as I can remember.

good point Eric......

that could be a problem
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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:02
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Re: AM' swerve modules

Any team that says they simply don't have the resources to be able to make a swerve drive is deceiving themselves. This year the ausTIN CANs, team 2158, made a 3-wheel swerve drive completely out of 3/8" lexan, using a band saw, drill, and a jigsaw. It was plenty sturdy for this year's competition, and the modules never gave us any problems, it was the motors that we were using (i.e. back to the control part). We decided to use the two FP's and one BB motor for the drive, and the Banebots caught fire 4 times throughout the competition. Over the summer, we're redesigning the system to use CIM's with continuous rotation (this year's modules only rotated 270 degrees), also primarily out of lexan and made completely by hand, that can stand up to forces of a 120-pound robot reversing direction at full speed with high-traction wheels on carpet. We already have a design, and all of the parts look to be checking out. It CAN be done no matter what team you're on, and with what resources.

I will reemphasize the issue of control, also. We steered the modules independently with the two Nippon-Denso window motors and one globe motor. The window motors jammed many times before we could get them aligned correctly, and we had to replace the globe motor when the mounting screws sheered off and jammed themselves into the holes of the gearbox. To measure the angle, we had a 10-turn potentiometer on each wheel that meshed to the module with band saw-made 3/8" lexan gears (a small one for the pot shaft and a large one as the entire top part of the module). By not declaring the location of the pot inputs correctly, we ripped wires off the robot several times when the modules started rotating out of control. Not to mention, when centering the modules (take the gear off the pot and turn it slightly until the module rotates to center, then center the pot again and put the gear back on), my hand has been sucked into the robot. There was much blood, and I still have a scar. That gives you an indication of how precarious having a ton of moving parts on your robot can be. Controlling swerve drive is not all about trigonometry.

The point of FIRST is not to have a level playing field. There are always teams out there with way more money and resources than your team ever will. The point of FIRST is to learn something and utilize the skills that your team DOES have to beat those teams. Selling a complete swerve module would probably detract many teams from their skills and make them think they would win if they just used swerve drive. If it's not in your repertoire, your team should either focus on getting it in your repertoire (i.e. LEARNING how to MAKE swerve drive), or focus on something you're already good at (like driving regularly).
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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:12
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Re: AM' swerve modules

I'm all for it.

We should try to raise the floor, not lower the ceiling.
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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:31
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Re: AM' swerve modules

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Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri View Post
I'm all for it.

We should try to raise the floor, not lower the ceiling.
ugh time to pull out the 6wheel swerve actuated center drop cad files
didnt want to resort to this
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Unread 22-04-2009, 23:49
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Re: AM' swerve modules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aren_Hill View Post
ugh time to pull out the 6wheel swerve actuated center drop cad files
didnt want to resort to this
I'll just grab that 6WD mecanum drive that's been posted... might make it rigid, though.
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Unread 23-04-2009, 02:50
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Re: AM' swerve modules

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
If AM were to sell a complete swerve module...

...Would it not fall under the following?
The thing with that paragraph (and also the one preceding it in the beginning of 8.3) is that it's unreasonably vague. I suspect FIRST puts it in there as an obstacle to those who might attempt to bring such a thing to market, and as a warning to teams about such products, rather than because they think that it's enforceable with any sort of consistency. (It's not even a numbered rule, which makes it doubly unclear how it's supposed to be enforced....)

When the test is effectively "I know it when I see it", the inspector doing the inspecting should be allowed to be flexible about the interpretation. Generally speaking, the most equitable way to enforce loosely- (or worse, poorly-) constructed rules is to give the teams the benefit of the doubt.

Plus, even if a COTS assembly was intended for use in FIRST competitions, and provided a complete solution for a major robot function, and was thus impermissible, it could still provide a function that could be used in many different ways, rendering it acceptable. There's no priority given to one condition or the other, so which is it: legal or illegal?

If the "rule" isn't a rule (in the usual sense), is blatantly unclear, and enforcing it requires a judgment of the designer's intent, I don't see any way that this can be reasonably and consistently applied over the range of possible COTS parts. That's different from being a safe bet, however: FIRST may think that there's no confusion, and act accordingly.

The economics of the situation look good, though: charge $250 per module, and sell some accessories that can be arranged in several different configurations (like different motors, different wheels, or mounting strategies), and you've got a winner.
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Unread 23-04-2009, 02:59
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Re: AM' swerve modules

So, why aren't the andymark mechanum wheels against the "spirit of the competition" but a swerve module is? After all, by using AM mechanum wheels teams learn nothing about machining, CNC usage, roller molding, etc.
Same thing with the gearboxes.

(This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just a general question)

At some point you have to draw a line, what's the justification for putting it here? And what other things are prohibited by the same logic?
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