Go to Post So when a team leader decides to give all their heart to a team, it is true love that they exhibit towards it. - Anton Abaya [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-04-2009, 10:27
Adam Freeman's Avatar
Adam Freeman Adam Freeman is offline
Forever HOT!
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 497
Adam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond reputeAdam Freeman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Correlation, Causation, and the Isolation of variables in FiM District Structure

Sean,

Thanks for pulling these statistics together. After reading many of the posts regarding the "success" of FiM and the district model, it seemed to me that the prevailing sentiment was that is was successful, based on the success of the MI teams at the Championships.

While I agree that the added matches and events allowed our teams additional driver experience and comfort under the pressure of elimination matches, I don't think it is un-reasonalbe to think that 67 or 217 would have had as much success in Atlanta if they only competed in the "normal" two events this season. (No disrespect meant to 68 or 247...just addressing the stats above)

My subjective thoughts on the district model is that everything worked out great. The largest difference that I noticed between the districts and the regional style events we attended, was the intensity of the match schedule a the districts. At both the MSC and FIRST Championships, Thursdays seemed to drag on a bit too long. Also, the hour+ between matches seemed a bit excessive, after the short breaks between matches during district play.

Granted, we had a very trouble free year in terms of robot maintence at competitions. If the robot was not as robust or was less reliable would my opinion be different? I can't really say. When I asked our pit crew, they said it wouldn't matter.

So from the statement above, the bagging w/8 hour window, the increased # of matches, and the small awards banquet were all positives in my opinion.

As for the lower cost events with less A/V presence. I can honestly say, I did not notice any less of an overall experience at a district than I did at the MSC.

As for negatives, I really am not sure. I tend to focus only on the smaller picture when I am at an event....the robot, the next match, strategy, etc... I don't notice any of the larger issues going on around the competition. I am sure that is a flaw that I should or should not address, depending on how focused my team needs me to be.

As was stated prior to the season, there needed to be some objective measure of the district model. I hope someone has statistics from this season on match turn around, volunteer output, etc...other than the $/match stats that could/was stated before the season ever started.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-04-2009, 22:01
IKE's Avatar
IKE IKE is offline
Not so Custom User Title
AKA: Isaac Rife
no team (N/A)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,149
IKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Correlation, Causation, and the Isolation of variables in FiM District Structure

Sean, thank you for looking into this. Great Thread

I am going to look at this slightly different.

If you look at the top of the curve, you won't see a ton of difference. Hot is still Hot and The Chickens are still the Chickens. The are both awesome and will likely continue to be that way as long as they keep putting in the great efforts that they do (keep it up guys).

One of the most important parts of the curve though is the bottom end. By this I mean the teams that only do 1 event and then dissappear or continually only do 1 event and never seem to improve. You won't hear a lot fo saber rattling from these guys as typically they are too busy trying to get a bot to drive straight. It has been brought up many times that FRC has a horrible attrition rate. This I have been told is one of the main goals of FiM. Teams that have trouble at the first event have 12 matches to get their stuff sorted out, and then most importantly another event to go to where they can try again.

One solid metric you will find is that those that play more do better. What is meant by that is there are few that continuously play at the Championship level (elims at Championship) that only go to 1 regional. Most of the teams competing in the elims go to 2 events and some even do 3 before Nationals. Line up the usual suspects and check. 71, 1114, 2056, 217, 33, 67, 254, 233, ..... You will see that one common thread is multiple events (there are other threads). This is more than just the extra stick time (that does help), it is the opportunity to try different things, learn, and grow. I just got off the phone with a Rookie team that most years would have done 1 event. They didn't get their auto mode going until the 5th match at their first event (death this year), but once they got going, they were good enough to get picked and played in the elims. They also made it to the State Championship. Because of their success, they are going to do off season events! This team most years would have had very little success and then folded into another high number dissappearing statistic. Instead, I have high hopes for their future.

To those focusing on the top of the curve, listen to Lil' Lavery, there is nothing new there.
Spotting Champions is easy. They have big shiny metals around their necks and are grinning from ear to ear while standing on podiums. Focus in on the other parts of the curve. I saw a lot more smiles and success from Rookies and young teams that hadn't quite figured out how to turn an OK season into a great one. I saw teams that have been mid pack really blosom when given the same chance at doing multiple events that bigger budget teams have.

I am not sure how to measure this other than number of matches and looking at possibly OPR shifts between events, and awards records. The other "evidence" I have is purely anecdotal which does have value, but often is skewed. In a couple of years, retention data should have statistical significance (though the economy would likely skew some of that too), but I can't see the rest of FRC being happy with a FiM Only Pilot that goes on for several years....

=======================================
I did have an interesting idea of measuring some of this. I am just not good enough at programming. If someone could go on TBA or FIRST records and show the amount of matches and Elim matches for teams over the last 3 years in MI, I think this might show some good data. It should show a big birth of new teams getting to play in Elims and getting more matches. Personally I feel that is a good thing towards sustainable growth.

Last edited by IKE : 25-04-2009 at 19:24.
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-04-2009, 11:42
Madison's Avatar
Madison Madison is offline
Dancing through life...
FRC #0488 (Xbot)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,243
Madison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Correlation, Causation, and the Isolation of variables in FiM District Structure

At the risk of sounding like a broken record...

If it's not about the robots™, how can examining the success of teams on the field -- at any end of the curve -- be used as an accurate, meaningful metric of the program's success?
__________________
--Madison--

...down at the Ozdust!

Like a grand and miraculous spaceship, our planet has sailed through the universe of time. And for a brief moment, we have been among its many passengers.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-04-2009, 19:05
IKE's Avatar
IKE IKE is offline
Not so Custom User Title
AKA: Isaac Rife
no team (N/A)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,149
IKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Correlation, Causation, and the Isolation of variables in FiM District Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madison View Post
At the risk of sounding like a broken record...

If it's not about the robots™, how can examining the success of teams on the field -- at any end of the curve -- be used as an accurate, meaningful metric of the program's success?
Could not agree with you more, but I took this thread to be about outside metrics, measurable, and correlations. (As a side note, I think it is safe to say that Robot performance is only part of "Team" performance this year with some highly effective Human players).

Thinking about it though, there are some things that could be measured.

Some great, "not entirely about the robot" metrics.

7 teams were recognized as District Chairman's award recipients instead of 3 from the regionals before. 3 went on from the State Championship to "The Championship"

A ton of Woody Flower Nominees were recognized at every event (regionals could do this too). I don't know the official count, but I believe it to be on the order of 30 or more mentors that got recognized (it could have been a lot more).
7 - Imagery, Spirit, Rookie Allstars......

These were pretty good "not about the robot" boosts for FiM. While not everything can be measured with Lucite or Medals, many things can be. For those that can't, please talk with those teams. Most that I have talked to really like the additional playing time, and the closer events. The second event was a huge thing to a lot of teams I talked to.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-04-2009, 20:03
EricLeifermann's Avatar
EricLeifermann EricLeifermann is offline
That was a short break
FRC #2826 (Wave Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,049
EricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Correlation, Causation, and the Isolation of variables in FiM District Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by IKE View Post
Could not agree with you more, but I took this thread to be about outside metrics, measurable, and correlations. (As a side note, I think it is safe to say that Robot performance is only part of "Team" performance this year with some highly effective Human players).

Thinking about it though, there are some things that could be measured.

Some great, "not entirely about the robot" metrics.

7 teams were recognized as District Chairman's award recipients instead of 3 from the regionals before. 3 went on from the State Championship to "The Championship"

A ton of Woody Flower Nominees were recognized at every event (regionals could do this too). I don't know the official count, but I believe it to be on the order of 30 or more mentors that got recognized (it could have been a lot more).
7 - Imagery, Spirit, Rookie Allstars......

These were pretty good "not about the robot" boosts for FiM. While not everything can be measured with Lucite or Medals, many things can be. For those that can't, please talk with those teams. Most that I have talked to really like the additional playing time, and the closer events. The second event was a huge thing to a lot of teams I talked to.
As for the recognizing the Woodie Flowers nominees, at the Wisconsin regional they put up a list on the screen of all the nominees before they announced the winner. I think that doing it this way is much better than the way they used to do it. You never knew who was nominated you just knew who won. Its nice to show the mentors what they really mean to you even if they don't get a trophy to show for it.
__________________
2002-2005 Appleton East High School: Team 93
2005-2011 Michigan Technological University: Team 857
2012-2016 Wave Robotics Team 2826



Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 30-04-2009, 19:16
Pat Major's Avatar
Pat Major Pat Major is offline
Registered User
#0494 (The Martians)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Goodrich, Michigan
Posts: 97
Pat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Correlation, Causation, and the Isolation of variables in FiM District Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricLeifermann View Post
As for the recognizing the Woodie Flowers nominees, at the Wisconsin regional they put up a list on the screen of all the nominees before they announced the winner. I think that doing it this way is much better than the way they used to do it. You never knew who was nominated you just knew who won. Its nice to show the mentors what they really mean to you even if they don't get a trophy to show for it.
At the FiM District events all of the WFA nominees were called down to the playing field for recognition (and a round of applause)for their contributions to their teams and FIRST.
__________________
A river is powerful because many drops of water have learned the secret of collaboration.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 30-04-2009, 19:43
EricLeifermann's Avatar
EricLeifermann EricLeifermann is offline
That was a short break
FRC #2826 (Wave Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,049
EricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Correlation, Causation, and the Isolation of variables in FiM District Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Major View Post
At the FiM District events all of the WFA nominees were called down to the playing field for recognition (and a round of applause)for their contributions to their teams and FIRST.
Yes, I attended Traverse City and the Troy districts, i was saying this was the 1st time that in my 8 years that i have seen a regional show everyone that was nominated. If they had called everyone down it would have taken forever, seeing as it was at a sports arena and not a high school gymnasium, so they didn't get the "honor" of standing in front of the crowd but it was still cool to see them all recognized.
__________________
2002-2005 Appleton East High School: Team 93
2005-2011 Michigan Technological University: Team 857
2012-2016 Wave Robotics Team 2826



Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 30-04-2009, 19:48
Pat Major's Avatar
Pat Major Pat Major is offline
Registered User
#0494 (The Martians)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Goodrich, Michigan
Posts: 97
Pat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond reputePat Major has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Correlation, Causation, and the Isolation of variables in FiM District Structure

Aspects of the FiM model that were successful and could be implemented to FIRST in general include:

1) Two day events – lots of positive feedback from mentors taking less time off work.
2) Bagging of robots – no shipping.
3) Volunteer run events – huge cost savings.
4) Events at High Schools – more exposure to teachers and non FIRST students, lower cost for venue.
5) Events that run later on Friday so teams don’t have to try to figure out what to do Friday night, they are doing what they came to do.
6) More matches per event.
7) A point system to rank teams could be implemented eliminating the issue of crossing state lines to compete.
__________________
A river is powerful because many drops of water have learned the secret of collaboration.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 30-04-2009, 20:09
Don Wright's Avatar
Don Wright Don Wright is offline
Registered User
FRC #0469
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 683
Don Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Don Wright Send a message via Yahoo to Don Wright
Re: Correlation, Causation, and the Isolation of variables in FiM District Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madison View Post
At the risk of sounding like a broken record...

If it's not about the robots™, how can examining the success of teams on the field -- at any end of the curve -- be used as an accurate, meaningful metric of the program's success?
FIRST, the organization, the program, the message...is not about the robots...

The FIRST Robotics Competition...is all about the robots... The inspiration is the result...

And, I'm willing to say that a successful robot, more rounds, more time with the robot, all of the things mentioned above (that all have to do with the robot) makes the inspiration more successful...

And that makes the FIRST organization or program a success...
__________________
Donald F. Wright Jr.
Product Manager
AVL Instrumentation & Test Systems, Inc.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
chassis isolation, contrary to UL1740? grambo Electrical 10 18-10-2008 20:18
Signed and unsigned variables dmlawrence Programming 4 05-01-2008 23:03
Your team's structure and organization Bharat Nain Team Organization 19 16-10-2005 22:26
Math.h and Functions and Variables amateurrobotguy Programming 1 26-02-2005 03:19
HELP!!! Counters, global variables, and the like danielkitchener Programming 2 23-02-2004 23:53


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:43.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi