Calling for everbody to sign a petition to FIRST

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Posted by Kyle Fenton at 04/25/2001 10:28 PM EST


Student on team #121, Islanders, from Middletown High School and NUWC.



Team 121 is setting up a petition to FIRST for the
following issues:

1. To bring back head on competition, or 2 vs. 2

2. To expand the material list, and where the
materials can be bought.

Thank you to all that participate in this Petition

Remember, the people who are involved in FIRST
listen to each other. To make FIRST better, we
need people to speak up, because everybody
makes a difference.

http://www.rhodewarrior.org/Petition.html

[archiver]

Posted by Ken Patton at 04/26/2001 12:43 AM EST


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: Calling for everbody to sign a petition to FIRST
Posted by Kyle Fenton on 04/25/2001 10:28 PM EST:



I was privileged to be the second signer of petition #1 during my visit to see the VERY COOL articulated Rhode Warrior in FL. Bring back exciting head-to-head matches!

I didn't sign #2.

Ken

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Posted by Kevin Sevcik at 04/26/2001 5:56 PM EST


College Student on team #57, Leopards, from BT Washington and the High School for Engineering Professions and Exxon, Kellog Brown & Root, Powell Electrical.


In Reply to: Calling for everbody to sign a petition to FIRST
Posted by Kyle Fenton on 04/25/2001 10:28 PM EST:



Hmm... I'm looking for the right imagery here. I know. Trying to get #1 passed is about as productive as using a zip tie for a motor coupling. Alright, it sucked, I know. Finals are coming up, ok?
Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that trying to change the competition back to 2v2 now seems like a pretty futile passtime to me. You did here Dean and Woody's speeches, didn't you? They love this idea and they love the fact that they can have a fairly exciting competition without teams directly competing. I think it would take a lot to get them to change their minds. Something on the order of a quarter of the teams threatening to quit or something.

Don't get me wrong. I kinda like 2v2, and I'd like to see it back if we could do away with the more violent defensive aspects. I just don't think it's gonna happen. Feel free to prove me wrong, though. That's been happening a lot lately. Maybe my professors just don't like me.....

[archiver]

Posted by Kyle Fenton at 04/27/2001 2:18 PM EST


Student on team #121, Islanders, from Middletown High School and NUWC.


In Reply to: Hmm....
Posted by Kevin Sevcik on 04/26/2001 5:56 PM EST:



This is the time we can change it. If we get enough
people to sign the 2v2 petition. They might change
it because this is the first year they have done this.
And a lot of people hated it. If we let them continue
with all teams participating together, than it would
be almost futile. Because they will say that this is
there bedrock principle of FIRST.

So if you want to change it. Right now, is the time to
do it.

[archiver]

Posted by Bill Beatty at 04/27/2001 12:42 AM EST


Other on team #71, Team Hammond, from Team Hammond.


In Reply to: Calling for everbody to sign a petition to FIRST
Posted by Kyle Fenton on 04/25/2001 10:28 PM EST:



Sorry Kyle, I can't agree even a little bit with your push to return to wheel to wheel competition. In the six years of our involvement in FIRST, this competition was, by far, the most exciting, electrifying of them all at the three events we were in. There were more folks watching and cheering at the final matches then there have been for a number of years. I can't imagine a design engineer or design team that can create a high capability, high scoring robot would ever want a slug of a do nothing robot to block, pound, or in any way restrict it's ability to perform. Could it be, that in actuality, the folks who are pushing for head to head and defensive competition are really fearful of putting their design and construction ability on the line? Maybe the ones that are saying they want competition really do not want to try and compete. Interesting.......

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Posted by Dan at 04/27/2001 1:26 AM EST


Other on team - from Carnegie Mellon sponsored by -.


In Reply to: Defense-A Fancy Word For Poor Ability
Posted by Bill Beatty on 04/27/2001 12:42 AM EST:



What about the high-capability, high-scoring robots that were turned into "a slug of a do nothing robot" when they were simply asked to crossed the field and sit or just pull the ramp down, etc?
Don't you think there are two sides to the story? I have a feeling you never felt this first hand considering your robots performace. I also have a feeling your circumstance was in the vast minority. Dean and Woodie are always sensitive to rookies but I think this competition was less exciting and inspiring for those whose very prized robots were turned into "do nothing robots" for the sake of the greater good.
This is all heresay since I didn't have a hand in this year's competition, but I think it's good heresay.
Dan

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Posted by Jason Morrella at 04/27/2001 3:47 AM EST


Coach on team #254, Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Prep & others and NASA Ames/Cypress Semiconductor/Unity Care.


In Reply to: Re: Defense-TWO sides to the story
Posted by Dan on 04/27/2001 1:26 AM EST:



As with any truly divisive issue - both sides are right on this one.

Bill, I agree that this years game - compared to all previous years - was most likely to end with the best designed, built, and functional robots at the top. Which CLEARLY was the outcome, as the best designed, built robot, and most deserving robot in the country was the lead robot in the champion alliance
(congratulations again by the way - you guys should be SO PROUD of what you built this year)

I would also agree with Dan that many teams, who spent just as much time & work on their robots as all those in the playoffs, did not get to use their robots as designed because of the game this year - and that is not a good situation either.

Having truly experienced both sides of the following statement - I can say this with complete confidence...

head-to-head gives teams with less money & resources the chance to out strategize and out drive the big money & resource teams - and in this way does level the playing field.

I agree with Bill 100% that ideally the top engineered robots want the opportunity to perform their skills.
I also agree with Dan that ALL TEAMS should be given a fair chance to control their robots as THEY designed and built them.

I see this issue as somewhat of a Catch 22.

Head-to-Head is the only way to legitimately give teams with less funding, less resources, few/no volunteer engineers, and little to no machine shop access a chance to defeat teams with all of those things.
(it is tough to argue that this is not a valid desire)

HOWEVER - Without head-to-head, it is MUCH more likely that the winners each year will be: teams which had the best mechanical designs, teams with the ability (resources, funding, & machine shop access) to build those designs exactly as they intended to, and teams which consistently performed well.
(it is tough to argue that this is not a valid desire also)

My hope is that there is a middle ground - that FIRST can create a game that in some way combines both values so many people are arguing for, and that teams can accept that neither extreme will ever be good for all teams as a whole.

Only one thing is guaranteed in FIRST - no matter what game they create - many people are going to complain about it depending on the amount of, or lack of, defense.

Regardless, as we do every year - we will accept the game next year for what it is, try to figure out the best strategy we can, build the best robot we can, compete the best we can, have a great time doing it, and focus on all of the positive & rewarding aspects of the FIRST experience instead of the tough aspects (which will always exist, especially if going out of your way to find them).

[archiver]

Posted by Andy Baker at 04/27/2001 8:04 AM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Bill & Dan both have GREAT points
Posted by Jason Morrella on 04/27/2001 3:47 AM EST:




: My hope is that there is a middle ground - that FIRST can create a game that in some way combines both values so many people are arguing for, and that teams can accept that neither extreme will ever be good for all teams as a whole.

Basketball. Offense... defense... exciting... media friendly... it sure would be nice.

I can see it now:

"...and the Cheesy Poofs bring the ball up the court, pass it over to the soft touch of the Tigerbolt, and they go for the three pointer... but wait! CyberBlue rejects the shot and we have a break-away! CyberBlue passes to the Full Metal Jackets in full stride... and for a tundering slam dunk! And the crowd goes wild!..."

Ok, there's my weekly robotic basketball plug.

Andy B.

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Posted by Deej- T190 at 04/27/2001 11:41 AM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompeii, from Mass Academy and WPI.


In Reply to: Basketball!!
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/27/2001 8:04 AM EST:



Hey, since you like basketball so much, as do I, any chance of getting a game going one of the nights that T-190 is there in Kokomo...Im always looking for a pickup game and figured if there enough people, lets do it...

Deej

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Posted by Erin at 04/27/2001 12:39 PM EST


College Student on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: Hey Andy
Posted by Deej- T190 on 04/27/2001 11:41 AM EST:



In the memorial gym, there is an auxillary gym located behind the beachers that the pits are put up against (if its anything like last year). You bring a ball and I bet you'll have game.

(picks up phone, calls Jordan...)

erin

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Posted by Deej- T190 at 04/27/2001 1:28 PM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompeii, from Mass Academy and WPI.


In Reply to: basketball!
Posted by Erin on 04/27/2001 12:39 PM EST:



Ball is packed and ready to go!!!!!!!!!!!! Who's in?

Deej


: In the memorial gym, there is an auxillary gym located behind the beachers that the pits are put up against (if its anything like last year). You bring a ball and I bet you'll have game.

: (picks up phone, calls Jordan...)

: erin

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Posted by Chris Hibner at 04/27/2001 1:44 PM EST


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.


In Reply to: Re: basketball!
Posted by Deej- T190 on 04/27/2001 1:28 PM EST:



: Ball is packed and ready to go!!!!!!!!!!!! Who's in?

: Deej

No basketball for me. I can't play basketball or shoot baskets to save my life. One of my worst memories is catching the T-shirt with the autograph on it during an EMU basketball game so I had to go on the court during halftime to shoot free throws for prizes. Of course, I threw an air-ball and got booed by 8000 people.

The biggest reason I stink at basketball is because I grew up playing hockey during the winter. Since the seasons are at the same time, you can only play one or the other, and in Northern Michigan, hockey is where it's at. I actually still play a little. Now if anyone wants to play some hockey, let me know and I'll bring my stuff.

-Chris

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Posted by Erin at 04/27/2001 2:01 PM EST


College Student on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: Basketball? Blah! Hockey -- Now THAT'S a sport!
Posted by Chris Hibner on 04/27/2001 1:44 PM EST:



(eom) means end of message

[archiver]

Posted by Matt Leese at 04/27/2001 2:17 PM EST


College Student on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.


In Reply to: And MSU is better at both (eom)
Posted by Erin on 04/27/2001 2:01 PM EST:



I think RIT could take a challenge on that. We
were number 2 in the country this year and undefeated
until the championship game I believe (Division
III....there's talk of going IA). Unfortunately the
Frozen Four we're the same weekend as the NJ regional
so I missed them (they were hosted at RIT).

Matt

[archiver]

Posted by Chris Hibner at 04/30/2001 9:40 AM EST


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.


In Reply to: And MSU is better at both (eom)
Posted by Erin on 04/27/2001 2:01 PM EST:



I'll give you basketball.

However, as to hockey:

U-M national titles in the last 10 years: 2
MSU: 0 (that's right - big fat ZERO)

I'll admit that MSU has the head to head in the last two years, but two years doesn't make a tradition.