New CRIO in the KOP next year?

[MrForbes]

One interesting thing I've noticed about the electronics...if you take the time and make the effort to design your electronics layout, mounting, and connections so it's easy to service, then you probably won't have to fix anything! I think it's a corollary to one of Murphy's laws.

We came up with a nice layout, very easy access, etc and never had to fix anything.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by dlavery

** Because it will be the Board, not the FIRST staff, that will make this decision. Right now, the Board is seriously disconnected from the teams in FIRST. They don't understand how "small" costs like these really impact this community. There is little direct, personal understanding of the impact of their decisions on the teams. During the recent combined Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board meeting in Atlanta, the question was asked "how many of you work directly with a team and have experience as a mentor?" Out of the entire room of people, only one hand went up. I think that is a huge problem.

I get this. For the 2009 season, I was not directly connected to a team and I could feel the disconnect develop over the season. Just.one.season. It doesn't take long for the disconnect to leave you completely out of touch with the reality of the team(s) and what they face/deal with every single day. Not every single day of build or every single day of competition - every single day. I hope I don't go through another year/another season of not being connected to a team. It will make me useless in areas of understanding the needs/priorities and struggles of the teams in the region I am in. In the bigger picture, a disconnect can create harm, chaos, and it can damage morale. Seriously.

[mwibbels]

Originally Posted by Greg McKaskle

Glad to hear someone has a normal boat that can't be held in place by 929 grams.

Anyway, to explain what was in the NI booth, we actually had three generations of the cRIO. The drop test was the original generation of modular system. It consists of a cpu module, a backplane module, and the I/O modules. The backplane has the FPGA and comes in four and eight slot sizes. This rectangular packaging allowed the controller to fly to around 4000 ft in a rocket -- slides into the tube like a loaf of bread along with the battery.

The FRC cRIO is called the integrated unit. It is lower weight and lower cost because the cpu and backplane are integrated into one PCB. It wasn't officially released when discussions about its use began.

The third generation on demo is often referred to as the single board RIO. It has the module connectors on the edges to flatten the product from a loaf of bread into a pizza, and in fact doesn't come with a housing since it is designed to be integrated into a cabinet on large machinery, etc. This product was also under development when discussions began, but wouldn't be released early enough, doesn't have an enclosure, etc.

Greg McKaskle

Greg, Can you give any further information on the cost targets, the schedule, the size, and the interface options for the 3rd generation cRio? From your description it is not clear to me that it meets Al's desired cheaper, simpler, and smaller goals. Which by the way I share

Thanks,

Mark

[Bob Steele]

I will echo what Dave said earlier. Everyone needs to weigh the costs of all decisions. One good example is this year's playing surface.
Assuming we don't use it again... we can look at the money spent like this:

Cost of a whole field of FRP was something approaching $1500 at undiscounted prices.

If we assume that every regional area probably had at least two or more practice fields.... This is a cost of 40 X 2 X 1500 = $120,000

If 1000 teams each bought 2 sheets at $30 a sheet that would be an additional $60,000.

So in a very conservative estimate... FIRST teams spent $180,000 on FRP this year.

Now the real cost is probably closer to $250,000 just for this material.

And yes... the cost of carpet would have been comparable... but carpet was used many times...in fact the carpet we used under our practice field was from 2 years ago...and you did need carpet under the FRP to match field conditions...

It was an interesting game... but in terms of how costly... the field was high cost.... and not reusable...
so the green cost was also high... FRP is probably partially made from petrochemicals...and what do we do with it now?

These kinds of issues... need to be considered...
Cost is magnified as we get bigger...

If everyone needed an extra Driver's Station this year because they needed a spare... that would be a cost of approximately 1500 X the $162 cost
or $243,000 Even if only 500 teams needed extra driver's stations the cost is $81,000 to teams...

If 1500 FIRST teams could each save even $250 from their cost of entering the competition that would be $375,000

This perhaps is the most telling statement.... FIRST would not get that money...

There is no good answer,
Next year's game should have someone on the GDC that oversees exactly this kind of thing...

both the $$$ hidden costs....
AND the Green costs of the game.
We need to start reusing things....
And we certainly should not be wasting anything...

Perhaps at the end of the season teams could get a rebate on the next year by sending BACK certain unused materials...
This might make more sense than a shopping cart approach to the kit.

just an idea

Anyone want to purchase some used FRP?

[Greg McKaskle]

Greg, Can you give any further information on the cost targets, the schedule, the size, and the interface options for the 3rd generation cRio? From your description it is not clear to me that it meets Al's desired cheaper, simpler, and smaller goals. Which by the way I share

There are currently eight SB-RIO models described on the web site which were announced and shipped this spring. The configurators do not include pricing on the SB-RIO, presumably because they are targeted for OEM usage. If you really want pricing for nonFRC projects, you are supposed to call. My info is from http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/7441.

The original cIO has traditionally been used for prototyping and low volume systems. The SB-RIO is a highly compatible version better suited for integration in higher volume production. If CERN were building dozens more Large Hadron Coliders, perhaps it would be cost effective for them to design a housing and switch to the SB-RIOs . Seriously though, the FedEx fire suppression system project does a better job of demonstrating the relationship between the original and SB-RIO. http://sine.ni.com/cs/app/doc/p/id/cs-11310

As for size -- It is different. The integrated cRIO is a loaf of bread. If you remove the PCB from the housing, flip the I/O connectors to the edges, you have something more like a square-ish pizza. There are photos of SB-RIOs on the above links.

I agree that this may not meets Al's cheaper, simpler, and smaller goals. The SB-RIO was developed independent of FRC, and should not be viewed as an attempted optimization for FRC.

Greg McKaskle

[ZInventor]

as a student from a rookie team, i really hope we do get another CRIO + all stuff to go with, since we don't have the money to buy one (we blew it all on going to Atlanta) and would really like to have at least two (one for the comp bot, one for a practice bot/demo bot)

overall, i like everything about the CRIO other than weight (but i'm not a programmer... other than web)

^^^ same goes for the jaguars..... (oh, and the part about them dying if they get even the slightest bit overloaded... the Victors were much more reliable (i was on another team before starting this one) and MUCH lighter...)

just my $.02

-Z

[EdwardP]

Originally Posted by ZInventor

as a student from a rookie team, i really hope we do get another CRIO + all stuff to go with, since we don't have the money to buy one (we blew it all on going to Atlanta) and would really like to have at least two (one for the comp bot, one for a practice bot/demo bot)

I'm sure you have probably thought of this, but we just didn't ship our CRIO, and brought it with us to our competitions.

[ZInventor]

Originally Posted by EdwardP

I'm sure you have probably thought of this, but we just didn't ship our CRIO, and brought it with us to our competitions.

true, but it's nice to be able to have multiple versions (ie. ne for programmers to work with, and one for the drivers to practice with...

it's also a hassle (easier w/ the CRio than IFI RC) to swap it on and off the bot...

also, it'd be fun to have two bots at off-season demo's for potential sponsors, that way, we could show off what it's all about...


-Z

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by ZInventor

true, but it's nice to be able to have multiple versions (ie. ne for programmers to work with, and one for the drivers to practice with...

it's also a hassle (easier w/ the CRio than IFI RC) to swap it on and off the bot...

also, it'd be fun to have two bots at off-season demo's for potential sponsors, that way, we could show off what it's all about...


-Z

I really overestimated how much of a hassle swapping is this season. I saw 254 swap it in/out at vegas and it really didn't take much time at all. Network cord, power input, modules, whatever fasteners, done.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

All right, how do we communicate with them?
Not sure how unreasonable it is, but setting up a program where each of them spends at least a weekend with a team might be a good experience.

The Board of Directors that makes the decisions has a member listing here:
http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=52

The first 18 people on the list are the folks that matter. I would imagine that Googling around a little will get you some contact info.

[alectronic]

Originally Posted by Speeder

Anyone know who the FIRST contact would be on this issue? Please send a link to this thread so our concerns can be noted.

I have already tried, for similar reasons as everyone else, and of course got the traditional GDC answer:
(to the effect of) "The 2010 KoP will not be released until the 2010 Kickoff, and if FIRST chooses to reveal any additional information, it will be through an "Email BLAST""

So, sounds like they do not even know yet

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

The Board of Directors that makes the decisions has a member listing here:
http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=52

The first 18 people on the list are the folks that matter. I would imagine that Googling around a little will get you some contact info.

You sir, just inspired me.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by billbo911

Weekend??? Try two to three weeks, or more. (I know that would be unrealistic to expect, but it would really give a good feel for reality.)

Adam, this is a fantastic idea!!! My concern is that the Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board would spend that time with many of the big name, well established, fully funded teams. That is well and good, but by no means represents the vast majority of the FIRST community. If we want them to see the full impact of making decisions, they need to observe the full range of teams that exist in FIRST. From the teams that are able to build two fully functional robots per year (one practice, one competition) to the teams that can barley get the KOP bot built and running in six weeks.

Be very careful what you ask for. Because we (the teams) will end up paying for it.

It sounds like as FIRST has grown, it has fallen victim to the same mentality that large corporations in the US have. More specifically, the most problematic issue facing many of these companies today:

The 'management' believes that people can not be promoted internally to take leadership positions, and that oversite boards have to be "hired" from executives "at large". That boards of directors can be built from random personnel not suited or experienced in that business, or people who have very little stake in the success of that company.

I never understood why people in any particular industry would believe that someone from another industry, just because he has the word "Director" or "Manager" next to his name, would make a more effecitive employee and be worth more than someone who worked up through the ranks.

Why is FIRST's governing body not made of active Woodie Flowers Award winners?

[BiTurboS4]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Why is FIRST's governing body not made of active Woodie Flowers Award winners?

While I do respect most of the WFA winners, i'm not sure that would help matters much. Granted it would give some insight into the process that isn't there currently, but I just don't see it changing to terribly much.

On the other hand, perhaps the GDC could use a shake up, maybe the WFA would be better suited to rotate a few members through each season to keep things fresh.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I think it is important to note that at least three people on that list regularly attend FIRST events and do talk to as many teams as they can. These three are beyond those you recognize and see at the podium. The person who shows up in your pit and asks questions may actually be a board member.