Go to Post All tools are powered by magic angry noise. - artdutra04 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
View Poll Results: Did VEX need to request permission from FIRST for Clean Sweep?
Yes, sure VEX needed to ask permission 6 11.76%
No permission needed 45 88.24%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 00:56
JackN JackN is offline
Registered User
AKA: Jack Nowakowski
no team
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Lansing
Posts: 1,249
JackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond reputeJackN has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

I am not a lawyer, and am in no way involved with VEX, but I do not see an infringement anywhere in here. The patent seems to be discussing the idea of Coopertition, not of any specific application. If they patented the RS method of tie breaking, then the VRC would be blatantly copying it, but based on the passage of the patent given I don't think VEX had to say anything to FIRST about using their system.
__________________
2005-2007 Team 494 (Lead Scout and Strategist)
2008 Team 70 (Drive Coach)
2009-2011 Team 1504 (College Mentor)
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 01:13
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,795
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

The patents haven't even been issued yet, have they? I thought they were just being reviewed now.

My answer is no. FIRST's patents are a joke (in my opinion) and I couldn't care less if anyone "violated" them.

At any rate, see Paul's post here. Unless a competition were to use the exact ranking algorithm that the 2003 game used, it sounds like they would not be in violation of the patent.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254

Last edited by Cory : 13-05-2009 at 02:10.
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 01:59
Unsung FIRST Hero
miketwalker miketwalker is offline
Robot Lifeguard
FRC #1902 (Exploding Bacon)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 878
miketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond reputemiketwalker has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to miketwalker
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

I think Cory's reference to Paul's post is correct.

However, even assuming the patent could allow FIRST to sue Vex/Innovation First, if that were to happen there would be a major problem as both FIRST and Vex could be viewed as humanitarian and volunteer driven organizations with the goal of motivating students to go to college in technical fields as well as provide some working knowledge of engineering in high school.

In a 100% hypothetical and fictitious scenario: If FIRST were to use legal measures to try to limit Vex the only people that would be hurt would be the students themselves and it would be pretty obvious that FIRST had lost it's way.

There are a handful of wonderful educational robotics programs, each with advantages and disadvantages, like BotBall, Battlebots IQ, BEST, FIRST, Vex, etc. but all with similar goals. I do worry that sometimes these groups unintentionally try to knock each other down when each one appeals to students in different ways with the same goal... to inspire students to become engineers. Lawyers have their place, but if they were used to try to demerit programs striving for the same goals as us then it would be quite ashame.
__________________
Chopsaw? Chopsaw.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 02:59
Herodotus's Avatar
Herodotus Herodotus is offline
Mountain Dew Bandolier Man
AKA: David Resowski
FRC #0910 (Foley Freeze)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 428
Herodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond reputeHerodotus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

To be honest, if FIRST have tried to use it's patents to sue anyone I'd simply leave. Like Cory said I see the whole idea of the patent as nothing more than a joke.
__________________
I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
--My Life in FIRST--
2009 Detroit Xerox Creativity Award
2009 Detroit District Finalists - Thanks to 1856 and 2620
2009 Kettering District Quarter-Finalists - Thanks to 1504 and 1025.
2008 Kettering Kickoff Champions - Thanks to 67, 1075 & 2619
2008 MARC Finalists - thanks 67 & 226
2008 Great Lakes Finalists - thanks 66 & 217
2008 Western Michigan Semi-Finalists - thanks 2337 and 1504
2008 GLR Judges Award Winner
2007 Curie Division Champions - thanks 330 and 1270
2007 ARC Champions (13 and 0, plus scoring a double-keeper!) - thanks 1625 and 313
2007 MARC Champions - thanks 1732 and 1023
2007 Xerox Creativity Award - Western Michign
2006 I.R.I. Champions - thanks 71 and 1625
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 04:22
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,613
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

I thought Dean make a big deal about "trying to enforce patent non-infringement", i.e. using the patents symbolically to promote the idea of coopertition.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
...2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
---
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
...2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design
...2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
...2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
...2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 Minnesota 10,000 Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 06:46
GaryVoshol's Avatar
GaryVoshol GaryVoshol is offline
Cogito ergo arbitro
no team
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
Posts: 5,726
GaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

IANAL, but the VEX Elevation game had the same QP/RP rules. They changed their names this year to Win Points and Strength of Schedule Points. I don't think FIRST could successfully sue for infringement in Clean Sweep if they made no claim about Elevation.
__________________
(since 2004)
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 10:01
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,112
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackN View Post
I am not a lawyer, and am in no way involved with VEX, but I do not see an infringement anywhere in here. The patent seems to be discussing the idea of Coopertition, not of any specific application.
Sorry, thanks for playing. You cannot patent an idea. Patents are only granted for a specific application. The Coopetition patent is for the specific application of enticing teams to win while still helping their opponent to earn a high score.

The Clean Sweep game rules obviously infringe on the patent. However, I'm pretty sure the main point of this particular patent is to publicize the invention, and FIRST isn't at all likely to refuse other organizations the right to use it.
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 10:07
smurfgirl smurfgirl is offline
Still a New Englander on the inside
AKA: Ellen McIsaac
FRC #5012 (Gryffingear)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Palmdale, CA
Posts: 1,725
smurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond reputesmurfgirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
The Clean Sweep game rules obviously infringe on the patent. However, I'm pretty sure the main point of this particular patent is to publicize the invention, and FIRST isn't at all likely to refuse other organizations the right to use it.
I was under the same impression. Just like it says in the name of the organization itself, FIRST seeks to inspire... I don't think they would sue another organization that's helping to accomplish the same thing.
__________________
Ellen McIsaac
Team 1124 ÜberBots 2005-2015
Team 5012 Gryffingear 2015+
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 10:40
Chris Hibner's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Chris Hibner Chris Hibner is offline
Eschewing Obfuscation Since 1990
AKA: Lars Kamen's Roadie
FRC #0051 (Wings of Fire)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,488
Chris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
Sorry, thanks for playing. You cannot patent an idea. Patents are only granted for a specific application. The Coopetition patent is for the specific application of enticing teams to win while still helping their opponent to earn a high score.

The Clean Sweep game rules obviously infringe on the patent. However, I'm pretty sure the main point of this particular patent is to publicize the invention, and FIRST isn't at all likely to refuse other organizations the right to use it.
Here's where I disagree. The patent claims qualification rankings based upon adding the winning alliances score to twice the losing alliances score. It doesn't have any provisions for win/loss record in qualifying, or for solely using the losing alliance's score. I think VEX can get around the patent easily if it came down to it.
__________________
-
An ounce of perception is worth a pound of obscure.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 12:13
Elgin Clock's Avatar
Elgin Clock Elgin Clock is offline
updates this status less than FB!
AKA: the one who "will break into your thoughts..."
FRC #0237 (Black Magic)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: H20-Town, Connecticut
Posts: 7,773
Elgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Elgin Clock
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

While i don't have the image viewer installed on this computer, I can tell by reading bits & pieces of the info that this patent is for the 2003 game.
Sure, it may incorporate a banner coopertitiion idea as well, but it seems to focus on 2003's game alone at least in terms of describing the playing field combined with the scoring methods as well.

Unless VEX (or any other robotics competition for that matter outside the realm of FIRST) decides to recreate exactly the 2003 FRC game, there shouldn't be an issue with any portions of this patent.

You have to take it as a whole, & not just focus on parts of it.
__________________
The influence of many leads to the individuality of one. - E.C.C. (That's me!!)


Last edited by Elgin Clock : 13-05-2009 at 12:17.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 12:21
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,112
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hibner View Post
Here's where I disagree.
Can you be more specific about what you're disagreeing with? I can't tell whether you think patents are indeed for ideas rather than for embodiments, or whether you think the patent describes something other than encouraging teams to cooperate with their opponents, or whether you think VEX is not infringing the patent, or whether you think the patent is designed to keep others from using the invention, or whether you think FIRST intends to withhold permission for VEX to use a scheme that rewards teams for high opponent scores. The rest of your comment doesn't seem to clarify things.

Quote:
The patent claims qualification rankings based upon adding the winning alliances score to twice the losing alliances score. It doesn't have any provisions for win/loss record in qualifying, or for solely using the losing alliance's score.
The claim doesn't specify the "W+2L" formula. It says "enhancing the raw score of the winning alliance by adding to the raw score of the winning alliance the raw score of the other alliance". What you said is in the description of the game used as an embodiment of the invention rather than in the basic claims. Win/loss record is not mentioned, but the losing alliance's score certainly is. See specifically claim #6 and this sentence from the detailed description:

Quote:
Originally Posted by United States Patent 7,507,169
Both teams in the losing alliance get their own alliance score in Qualifying Points (QP's).
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 13:04
Chris Hibner's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Chris Hibner Chris Hibner is offline
Eschewing Obfuscation Since 1990
AKA: Lars Kamen's Roadie
FRC #0051 (Wings of Fire)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,488
Chris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
Can you be more specific about what you're disagreeing with?
I'm disagreeing with a FIRST lawsuit holding up in court.

Quote:
The claim doesn't specify the "W+2L" formula. It says "enhancing the raw score of the winning alliance by adding to the raw score of the winning alliance the raw score of the other alliance".
Exactly. No where in VEX's rules is the winning alliance's score added to the other alliance's score.

Also, claim 6 pertains to how to set the QPs for the losing alliance ("other alliance" is referring to the losing alliance referring to claim 5).

I agree that you can't patent an idea. The claims in the patent do not explicitly cover the qualifying format used in VEX. In my limited experience working with patents, it doesn't take much to circumvent a patent. Changing a very minute detail is usual plenty enough to get around it. VEX using wins and losses and NOT adding winner's and loser's score together (as claimed in claim 5) should be way more than enough needed to win a court case, if it came down to it.

This all being said, this is just an academic argument since I'd be shocked if FIRST ever tried to enforce the patent.
__________________
-
An ounce of perception is worth a pound of obscure.
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 13:55
kramarczyk's Avatar
kramarczyk kramarczyk is offline
is getting his kicks.
AKA: Mark Kramarczyk
FRC #3096 (Highlanders)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 602
kramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond reputekramarczyk has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Is it possible that the intent of this patent is not to divide the various organizations, but to provide a means to join them? I will agree with the idea that this patent is defensible in court is ludicrous, but it could be a political tool. Licensing 'coopertition' for $1 among the various organizations could provide a series of media bites to draw attention to S&T. It also provides a tangible reference to point at during the PR battle to promote change.

The question then becomes, will other organizations play ball with this idea... coopertition between organizations. Dean has said for a while that he thinks companies should behave more like the teams. FIRST can't take this to a corporate level by itself, it needs a partner. Perhaps licensing this patent is percieved as a way to demonstrate that.

So did VEX have to say pretty please? Nah, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody wants a dollar.
__________________
Mark

Brick walls are for other people. - Randy Pausch
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 12:13
dlavery's Avatar
dlavery dlavery is offline
Curmudgeon
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 3,176
dlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by miketwalker View Post
There are a handful of wonderful educational robotics programs, each with advantages and disadvantages, like BotBall, Battlebots IQ, BEST, FIRST, Vex, etc. but all with similar goals. I do worry that sometimes these groups unintentionally try to knock each other down when each one appeals to students in different ways with the same goal... to inspire students to become engineers. Lawyers have their place, but if they were used to try to demerit programs striving for the same goals as us then it would be quite a shame.
Mike hit on the real meat of this entire discussion.

I get concerned when I hear anyone from a student on a rookie team all the way up to a member of the Board Of Directors talking about "competing" with the other programs. Without a doubt, there are those within FIRST, BotBall, VEX, BEST, BBIQ and MATE that are concerned about "being overtaken" by "the other guys." ** This is a horrifically inane and patently foolish viewpoint.

FIRST, BotBall, VEX, BEST, BBIQ and MATE reach a combined total of less than 7% of the high schools in the United States. 93% of the market is currently untapped. The simple reality is that competition between these programs is both counter-productive to their own goals, and totally unnecessary.

If these programs could grow at a combined average rate of 20% per year (as reference, FRC has been growing at a average of about 10% per year in recent years), it will take them at least another 15 years before they even come close to saturating the pool of schools in the U.S., let alone the world. Use a slightly more realistic (but still massively optimistic) sustained long-term growth rate of 15%, and it will be more than 20 years before we reach that point.

So for the next two decades, all these organizations that are publicly stating that they are pursuing the same goal (inspiring the next generation of engineers and scientists, and changing the common culture) can do so without ever running into each other. All of these organizations can expend ALL of their resources on the growth of their own programs, and never spend a cent on "competing with the other guys," and they will keep themselves fully occupied well through the 2020's. To fulfill their own corporate visions, every resource they have can be focused on the growth of their programs in the most cost-effective way possible.

Spending resources to go into a school where a "competing" program already exists (and therefore by definition, into a school that already gets the point of using robotics competition program to inspire students) does not accomplish that. It does nothing to increase the total number of schools in the country where these inspirational programs are available, or add to the number of schools that participate in the mission of these programs. Spending those resources to identify and incorporate the schools where the program do not yet exist is the way to reasonably and cost-effectively increase the availability of these programs to students across the country, and move toward fulfilling the vision. The even more cost-effective growth mechanism would be to leverage the existence of the other programs and the similar investments they are making, and utilize their growth as a way to magnify the efforts of this organization. The very best growth model is one where these organizations all work together to their mutual benefit, to accelerate their combined growth rate, and to reduce their own costs of identifying and recruiting school participation (can anyone say "coopetition"?).

To the original topic: is the "coopetition" patent enforceable? I don't know, and honestly I really don't care. I am much more concerned about the message sent if the organization that owns the patent were to ever TRY to enforce it. Because that would be a signal that the organization was expending resources recklessly, and had taken on a different set of values and priorities then those that attracted many of us. That would be a signal that the true meaning of "coopetition" existed solely on paper, and was not something practiced even by the organization that defined it. And that would be a very sad day.*

-dave

* to be clear: I am not saying that FIRST is anywhere near this point. But it is a signal which I will always keep in mind.

[edit] ** and to be fair, I should also note that there are also people in each of these organizations that definitely understand that competition between these programs is counter-productive, and the best thing that they can do is find ways to leverage their efforts and work together toward their common goals. I just wish they had more opportunities to speak up and let a larger portion of the community hear from them. [/edit]


.
__________________
"I know what you're thinking, punk," hissed Wordy Harry to his new editor, "you're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' - and to tell the truth, I forgot myself in all this excitement; but being as this is English, the most powerful language in the world, whose subtle nuances will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' - well do you, punk?"
- Stuart Vasepuru, 2006 Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest



My OTHER CAR is still on Mars!!!

Last edited by dlavery : 14-05-2009 at 11:55.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-05-2009, 21:48
gblake's Avatar
gblake gblake is offline
6th Gear Developer; Mentor
AKA: Blake Ross
no team (6th Gear)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,934
gblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery View Post
...
FIRST, BotBall, VEX, BEST, BBIQ and MATE reach a combined total of less than 7% of the high schools in the United States. 93% of the market is currently untapped.
...
And in the 7% of schools Dave cites, the program that is present is often one that only engages a fraction (large or small) of the students that can be reached.

Think of the difference between the number of students who play sports on a school's teams, and the far, far greater number of students who play organized sports in leagues outside of their school system or outside of any organized league.

If anything, Dave underestimated the size of the opportunities. Changing the culture (not just the schools, but the culture) has a long way to go yet. That means I/we can look forward to fun and satisfying hobbies for quite a while yet.

Blake
__________________
Blake Ross, For emailing me, in the verizon.net domain, I am blake
VRC Team Mentor, FTC volunteer, 5th Gear Developer, Husband, Father, Triangle Fraternity Alumnus (ky 76), U Ky BSEE, Tau Beta Pi, Eta Kappa Nu, Kentucky Colonel
Words/phrases I avoid: basis, mitigate, leveraging, transitioning, impact (instead of affect/effect), facilitate, programmatic, problematic, issue (instead of problem), latency (instead of delay), dependency (instead of prerequisite), connectivity, usage & utilize (instead of use), downed, functionality, functional, power on, descore, alumni (instead of alumnus/alumna), the enterprise, methodology, nomenclature, form factor (instead of size or shape), competency, modality, provided(with), provision(ing), irregardless/irrespective, signage, colorized, pulsating, ideate
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Did he just say that? Richard Wallace Championship Event 2 27-04-2006 21:15
FAHA mailbox: I Got Something To Say And It Ain't Pretty SilenceNoMore General Forum 12 20-04-2004 00:50
did they say purchase tickets?! Amanda Aldridge General Forum 16 05-01-2003 12:24
please help us, pretty please :) archiver 2001 0 24-06-2002 03:13
What did that screen say? Greg Ross CD Forum Support 1 01-02-2002 08:46


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:42.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi