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View Poll Results: Did VEX need to request permission from FIRST for Clean Sweep?
Yes, sure VEX needed to ask permission 6 11.76%
No permission needed 45 88.24%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 13-05-2009, 10:01
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Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackN View Post
I am not a lawyer, and am in no way involved with VEX, but I do not see an infringement anywhere in here. The patent seems to be discussing the idea of Coopertition, not of any specific application.
Sorry, thanks for playing. You cannot patent an idea. Patents are only granted for a specific application. The Coopetition patent is for the specific application of enticing teams to win while still helping their opponent to earn a high score.

The Clean Sweep game rules obviously infringe on the patent. However, I'm pretty sure the main point of this particular patent is to publicize the invention, and FIRST isn't at all likely to refuse other organizations the right to use it.
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Unread 13-05-2009, 10:07
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Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
The Clean Sweep game rules obviously infringe on the patent. However, I'm pretty sure the main point of this particular patent is to publicize the invention, and FIRST isn't at all likely to refuse other organizations the right to use it.
I was under the same impression. Just like it says in the name of the organization itself, FIRST seeks to inspire... I don't think they would sue another organization that's helping to accomplish the same thing.
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Unread 13-05-2009, 10:40
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Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

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Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
Sorry, thanks for playing. You cannot patent an idea. Patents are only granted for a specific application. The Coopetition patent is for the specific application of enticing teams to win while still helping their opponent to earn a high score.

The Clean Sweep game rules obviously infringe on the patent. However, I'm pretty sure the main point of this particular patent is to publicize the invention, and FIRST isn't at all likely to refuse other organizations the right to use it.
Here's where I disagree. The patent claims qualification rankings based upon adding the winning alliances score to twice the losing alliances score. It doesn't have any provisions for win/loss record in qualifying, or for solely using the losing alliance's score. I think VEX can get around the patent easily if it came down to it.
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Unread 13-05-2009, 12:13
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Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

While i don't have the image viewer installed on this computer, I can tell by reading bits & pieces of the info that this patent is for the 2003 game.
Sure, it may incorporate a banner coopertitiion idea as well, but it seems to focus on 2003's game alone at least in terms of describing the playing field combined with the scoring methods as well.

Unless VEX (or any other robotics competition for that matter outside the realm of FIRST) decides to recreate exactly the 2003 FRC game, there shouldn't be an issue with any portions of this patent.

You have to take it as a whole, & not just focus on parts of it.
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Last edited by Elgin Clock : 13-05-2009 at 12:17.
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Unread 13-05-2009, 12:21
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Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

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Originally Posted by Chris Hibner View Post
Here's where I disagree.
Can you be more specific about what you're disagreeing with? I can't tell whether you think patents are indeed for ideas rather than for embodiments, or whether you think the patent describes something other than encouraging teams to cooperate with their opponents, or whether you think VEX is not infringing the patent, or whether you think the patent is designed to keep others from using the invention, or whether you think FIRST intends to withhold permission for VEX to use a scheme that rewards teams for high opponent scores. The rest of your comment doesn't seem to clarify things.

Quote:
The patent claims qualification rankings based upon adding the winning alliances score to twice the losing alliances score. It doesn't have any provisions for win/loss record in qualifying, or for solely using the losing alliance's score.
The claim doesn't specify the "W+2L" formula. It says "enhancing the raw score of the winning alliance by adding to the raw score of the winning alliance the raw score of the other alliance". What you said is in the description of the game used as an embodiment of the invention rather than in the basic claims. Win/loss record is not mentioned, but the losing alliance's score certainly is. See specifically claim #6 and this sentence from the detailed description:

Quote:
Originally Posted by United States Patent 7,507,169
Both teams in the losing alliance get their own alliance score in Qualifying Points (QP's).
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Unread 13-05-2009, 13:04
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Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
Can you be more specific about what you're disagreeing with?
I'm disagreeing with a FIRST lawsuit holding up in court.

Quote:
The claim doesn't specify the "W+2L" formula. It says "enhancing the raw score of the winning alliance by adding to the raw score of the winning alliance the raw score of the other alliance".
Exactly. No where in VEX's rules is the winning alliance's score added to the other alliance's score.

Also, claim 6 pertains to how to set the QPs for the losing alliance ("other alliance" is referring to the losing alliance referring to claim 5).

I agree that you can't patent an idea. The claims in the patent do not explicitly cover the qualifying format used in VEX. In my limited experience working with patents, it doesn't take much to circumvent a patent. Changing a very minute detail is usual plenty enough to get around it. VEX using wins and losses and NOT adding winner's and loser's score together (as claimed in claim 5) should be way more than enough needed to win a court case, if it came down to it.

This all being said, this is just an academic argument since I'd be shocked if FIRST ever tried to enforce the patent.
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Unread 13-05-2009, 13:55
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Re: Did VEX have to say Pretty Please?

Is it possible that the intent of this patent is not to divide the various organizations, but to provide a means to join them? I will agree with the idea that this patent is defensible in court is ludicrous, but it could be a political tool. Licensing 'coopertition' for $1 among the various organizations could provide a series of media bites to draw attention to S&T. It also provides a tangible reference to point at during the PR battle to promote change.

The question then becomes, will other organizations play ball with this idea... coopertition between organizations. Dean has said for a while that he thinks companies should behave more like the teams. FIRST can't take this to a corporate level by itself, it needs a partner. Perhaps licensing this patent is percieved as a way to demonstrate that.

So did VEX have to say pretty please? Nah, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody wants a dollar.
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