Did Lunacy really level the playing field?

[waialua359]

I just want to add for '09, that drivetrains didnt make the difference, but man, the orientation sure did.
Wide bots were much easier to drive (turn and maneuver) than the long ones.
What made it worst for teams like us, is not being able to harvest from the ground, not with respect to loading up and scoring more, BUT with respect to being able to "hug" a trailer while scoring when your opponent is trying to get away.

[sgreco]

Cory, I agree with you too.

I don't honestly think trying to even the playing field is worth trying to do. The dominant veteran teams willl always be good. There are certain things veteran teams always do. For example,
A veteran team is much less likely to come into a match with a broken robot because they will build it robustly. (this will not change no matter what the game).
Veteran teams will finish early and get a lot of crucial practice time. (again this is something that will not change year to year).
Veteran teams will also generally pick a better design to play the game in general due to experience in designing and likely better prototyping.(However even the playing field is, certain design are always better than others and teams like 1114, 217, 111, 254, 67, 148, 330 etc are more likely to pick these designs.)
One things I've noiced is that veteran teams have many small ways to save weight. In 2007, I saw a rookie and a veteran weigh in, they both weighed just under 110, their claws were the same and so were their drivetrain, but the veteran had weight for a mainipulator and the rookie didn't.(this is another thing that will never change is that veterans will be more adept at finding ways to make weight for alll the subsystems they want and not compromise performance in any specific areas.

These are just some realities, the teams that are dominant will always be dominant no matter what.

Adding low friction didn't really help becuase many inexperienced teams were slipping around while experianced teams used very effective traction controls. (I'm not saying rookie teams aren't capable, they just aren't all as likely to make a good design as a most veterans are).

[dlavery]

I am going to challenge one of the basic premises of this thread. It has been stated already in this thread (and several others) that one of the purposes for the changes incorporated into the 2009 game is to "level the playing field to close the have/have-not gap" for the teams.

Says who?

Can anyone show me where this assertion has been stated by any credible source?

Like so many other things, the "need to level the playing field" argument is urban myth. And like most urban myths, it is simply not true. While there are many, many factors that are considered during the design of a FRC game (some of which are obvious to teams, but many of which are not), I can state categorically that particular issue was never a consideration.

And if "leveling the playing field to close the gap" was not one of the intended effects of the game, then I am not sure why we are debating whether that gap was successfully narrowed or not.

-dave



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[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Can anyone show me where this assertion has been stated by any credible source?

Like so many other things, the "need to level the playing field" argument is urban myth. And like most urban myths, it is simply not true. While there are many, many factors that are considered during the design of a FRC game (some of which are obvious to teams, but many of which are not), I can state categorically that particular issue was never a consideration.

And if "leveling the playing field to close the gap" was not one of the intended effects of the game, then why I am not sure why we are debating whether that gap was successfully narrowed or not.

-dave



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Dave and I have a fun history of disagreements, but I fully agree with what he said here. Games are designed to be fun, challenging, and/or match any new technologies or ideas the GDC want to incorporate. I think this perception is there because the games have matured in design and scope as the GDC has had years of practice, past games to reference, and a larger active community.

I see the KoP closing the gap more than the game ever has.

[Rob]

Based on my observations this year and past, I have to agree with Dave. I see no evidence that leveling the playing field has ever been a goal of any game design. As supporting evidence of that observation, I offer Cory's concept that this year did not level the playing field.

What makes successful teams successful is not the resources they have at their disposal, it is the decisions that they make on how to apply those resources.

What I saw coming from the unique playing surface this year was a shift in how these successful teams approached their decision making about propulsion systems. The propulsion system changed from a very mechanical challenge to one that took a bit more thinking and involvement from other areas of the team. It became much more than simply transmissions and wheels. Instead of spending time on custom transmissions and wheels, effort on traction systems and alternative propulsion such as fans was rewarded with on field success.

This is the first year in my 14 in FIRST that I have seen programmers so excited about the design of the drive system. To me, that is the achievement of this game. It did not level any playing field but it did challenge what was considered to be the norm for design and construction of propulsion systems.

Personally, I hope to see more twists in future games that challenge us to look differently at design.

[Chris is me]

How does such a claim that the game was made to "level the playing field" come about, if apparently it was never true in the first place? I mean I could have sworn I've heard it a dozen times, or talked with several teams about it. I don't like rumors anymore

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

How does such a claim that the game was made to "level the playing field" come about, if apparently it was never true in the first place? I mean I could have sworn I've heard it a dozen times, or talked with several teams about it. I don't like rumors anymore

I don't think anyone in this thread implied that the intent of game design this year was to level the playing field. People are merely discussing that a leveling of the playing field was not an effect of the unique challenge this year.

After kickoff there was quite a bit of speculation on CD that the drastic change in surface would have a leveling effect. I think the purpose of Cory's post was to show his observation that this did not occur.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Rob

I don't think anyone in this thread implied that the intent of game design this year was to level the playing field. People are merely discussing that a leveling of the playing field was not an effect of the unique challenge this year.

After kickoff there was quite a bit of speculation on CD that the drastic change in surface would have a leveling effect. I think the purpose of Cory's post was to show his observation that this did not occur.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to the GDC wanting to level the playing field. My comments were based on the fact that I've seen many, many posts (and heard many people) claiming that the playing field has been leveled by the FRP/wheels/other game design elements this year.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

How does such a claim that the game was made to "level the playing field" come about, if apparently it was never true in the first place? I mean I could have sworn I've heard it a dozen times, or talked with several teams about it. I don't like rumors anymore

This is a thread that discussed some of this that was written in 2006. When you have time, read it. You will see that there are lots of opinions expressed, that emotions ran high, and that there was no resolution. The discussion was interesting and added insight and perspective but it did come at a price.

Many people involved that enjoy chitchat and idle speculation create this attitude and it becomes rumor. They don't take the time to check the facts or the mission of FIRST. As Dave said, it becomes urban myth but that is all that it is, urban myth. At one time there was a myth that the world was flat and if you traveled any distance, you would fall off the edge. We laugh at that now, but there were entire societies and cultures that believed it very strongly and would not put forth the resources to explore and find out for themselves. They chose to remain ignorant and closed to opportunity and discovery.

If the GDC and FIRST were to ever make an official statement (which they won't) that the decision had been made to level the playing fields for all teams involved in FRC, I would personally post that in my signature in ChiefDelphi, stating that they had become a closed committee and organization, no longer interested in discovery, opportunity, and obtaining knowledge. Then I would have no reason for being involved in FRC or FIRST in general. It's that simple. And, the sad part of that would be that Ms. Keller's quotation would be removed and her wisdom would no longer be considered valid.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by dlavery

I am going to challenge one of the basic premises of this thread. It has been stated already in this thread (and several others) that one of the purposes for the changes incorporated into the 2009 game is to "level the playing field to close the have/have-not gap" for the teams.

Says who?

Can anyone show me where this assertion has been stated by any credible source?

Like so many other things, the "need to level the playing field" argument is urban myth. And like most urban myths, it is simply not true. While there are many, many factors that are considered during the design of a FRC game (some of which are obvious to teams, but many of which are not), I can state categorically that particular issue was never a consideration.

And if "leveling the playing field to close the gap" was not one of the intended effects of the game, then why I am not sure why we are debating whether that gap was successfully narrowed or not.

-dave



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Originally Posted by Chris is me

How does such a claim that the game was made to "level the playing field" come about, if apparently it was never true in the first place? I mean I could have sworn I've heard it a dozen times, or talked with several teams about it. I don't like rumors anymore

Dave, correct me if I am wrong but I distinctly recall mention of the phrase, "level the playing field" during the talks on the day of kickoff. I can't find video nor do I have the ability to search for it right now.

That being said, one of my concerns this year was the attempt to level the playing field. I don't believe that this should be a goal at any point. Perhaps raising the general level of competition, but NEVER level it. I do not believe that Lunacy leveled the field at all, and frankly I am glad for this. You know, I am proud to say that I got my butt handed to me by 217, 68, and 67 (never met 247 on the field) It gives me something to shoot for next year. Good Job powerhouse teams, don't let the people whining about losing bring you down, NEVER play at anything but your best effort.

[Starke]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Dave, correct me if I am wrong but I distinctly recall mention of the phrase, "level the playing field" during the talks on the day of kickoff. I can't find video nor do I have the ability to search for it right now.

I agree Andrew. I am fairly certain that Woodie used that phrase when hinting towards something that would change the game. I started watching the kickoff video, but it will not let you scroll through it to find a clip.

[EricH]

Dave, if the GDC ever intentionally decides to level the playing field or bridge the gap, then you better not introduce yourselves at Kickoff.

If the playing field is level, and the teams are (largely) the "same", then who on earth (or Mars) are we going to look up to, imitate, emulate, and try to be? What will there be to make us think "That's really cool!"?

Like I said earlier, the best way to "level the field" is to run a game like the ones before 2005--multiple ways to score, worth varying amounts of points. In this case, "leveling the field" will not be the object. It will be a byproduct. And it will be on a voluntary basis. And we'll still have teams that we look up to and think "That's really cool! Why didn't I think of that?"

[Roboj]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Dave, correct me if I am wrong but I distinctly recall mention of the phrase, "level the playing field" during the talks on the day of kickoff. I can't find video nor do I have the ability to search for it right now.

I recall from Atlanta 2008 a common opinion from many attendees (and CD posters) that the control system change was going to level the playing field as every team would be a rookie around the control system. That could probably initiate an additional thread on its own as to whether that actually had any effect.

[AdamHeard]

Nope, definitely didn't level the playing field (I don't really need to post the same reasons others have already beat to death), and I don't think it would ever be possible to level the level the playing field without destroying FIRST.

Teams that work hard to get good sponsors, good facilities, good mentors, and good resources (yup "those" "Nasa" and "GM" teams don't just get it handed to them) and then go on and bust their arses during the season will always be better on average.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by dlavery

And if "leveling the playing field to close the gap" was not one of the intended effects of the game, then why I am not sure why we are debating whether that gap was successfully narrowed or not.

You could, however, credibly make the argument that, "A lot of experienced teams have sophisticated high-powered drive trains that have been refined over years of experience. The inclusion of a low-friction playing surface and standardized wheels may have had the effect of lowering the advantage of these drive trains. Did these factors this year decrease the competitive advantage that experienced teams with these drive trains have had in the past?" This permits discussion of the tactical and engineering aspects without trying to divine the processes and intentions of the devious GDC hivemind.