Adults as Coaches on the field

[David Brinza]

The subject of adult coaches is also discussed in this FAHA thread.

I doubt FIRST will create a rule requiring/forbidding adult coaches, just as they won't tell teams that robots must be 100% student built.

Now that you've got my attention, here's my take:

An adult coach can bring stability to a team that a student cannot. Authority and experience are big factors in effective leadership. All high school sports teams (football, basketball, soccer, baseball) have adult coaches whose performance is of keen interest to the school. Win/loss records often determine whether they stay or go. There isn't that kind of pressure on FIRST teams (or at least not yet), but consistent, "good" teams are well-known and respected by the broad FIRST community. The investment of time, money, and talent in FIRST is worth putting a team's best capability on the field to make good decisions in a match. In most cases, an adult mentor is more qualified to assume that responsibility.

[OScubed]

Preface: this is my opinion. Others have a different opinion (re the FAHA thread).

On our team our adult mentors stay where they belong - on the sidelines. As you rightly pointed out - this is a student experience. You learn both from success and failure (sometimes more from failure than success) and you can't fail if no one gives you the opportunity to do so, and you will savor the success so much more if you know it was YOUR effort and YOU bore the risk of failure. We always have a post-action breakdown and look at successes/room for improvement, but in the end the students make the decision and they are the ones that bear the responsibility.

By placing an adult mentor in the coaching role on the field you are depriving a student of the experience. Our best and most dedicated team members have come into their own in a leadership role through being coaches.


There are many things that a good mentor program can do to prepare the on-field coaching team (should be one person and a backup). Leadership training, practice, and teambuilding are all important parts of building an excellent on-field staff and a coach/drive team that works in unison. Bringing junior members of the team onto the field in backup roles prepares them to be coaches over the next few years.

If you need help contact us at www.penfieldrobotics.com and we'll work with your mentors to setup a leadership boot camp and give them the process we use to coach our coaches.

They don't allow mentors to come into the room during chairman's presentations. Why is this any different?

It doesn't mean our mentors don't WANT to be on the field. But we are where we belong - biting our nails in the stands. This is a picture of our lead mentor when we won the Chairman's at Chesapeake - sitting where she was most of the day when not in the pits. In the stands:

[ttldomination]

I was hesitant to post at first, considering that there are already so many threads which have addressed this topic, but I guess I'll go ahead and state my views.

First off, I agree with Mr. OScubed in that I strongly believe that students should be coaches. It's not to say that adults should NOT be coaches, it's that...well, I also believe it's a student experience, and when you have adult coaches, then students can't plan on an even field. Adult coaches can sometimes be overbearing and a student coach might come across as rude if he/she argues with the adult coach.

But then again, I don't want to give the adults the level...of disrespect as to deny them the oppurtunity. No matter how gently someone says "no" a no is a no, and it'll be rude none the less. If an adult understands and believes that he or she should not coach, then it's a whole different thing, but if an adult/mentor steps forward and asks to coach, I couldn't possibly say no.

So..it's one of those age old arguments similar to abortion or gay rights, although not exactly on the same scale. You have people who can argue both sides but until FIRST instigates a rule concerning this matter, I don't think we'll ever have a "right" on this topic.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

In the discussions, we often get caught up in the argument and do not talk about the position or the whys.

I sincerely hope this thread doesn't morph as the others did. They almost all start out with a polite post and end in a clash. My suggestion to all who post here, is avoid the clash in your posting. Be careful of your precise wording from the very beginning, otherwise this thread will take a turn. As for me, I think I'm sitting this debate out.

I would just like to add one thought before I leave.

Originally Posted by ttldomination

You have people who can argue both sides but until FIRST instigates a rule concerning this matter, I don't think we'll ever have a "right" on this topic.

Even if FIRST were to make a rule regarding the coach. People will argue about whether or not the rule is "right". So the debate goes on...

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

... when you have adult coaches, then students can't plan on an even field.

This.

I really did not want to post in this thread until I saw this. I do not understand how you evaluate the skill of a coach based on their age. I honestly don't. If a student has been coaching on their team for 3 years, and an adult has been coaching on another team for 3 years, do they not have the same exact experience and a "level" field? I'm honestly just asking for reasoning for that statement.

If you can't be "even" with them, whatever you feel that means, join them.

Consider this: I come from a team that has always had students coach yet my opinion is to do whatever the heck the team feels.
+$0.02, I will have no other posts in continuing this thread btw. If you'd like to argue, PM . I do not wish to start an argument in the thread like those other flame threads.

[Ryan Caldwell]

I think you can treat it much like business, sometimes you have a coach (ceo/PM) that has years of experiance, this can be a blessing or a curse. They know the basics how to coach but are adapting to the new game. If you find a student (new hire/PM) they will have only coached this years game. They are basically at the samelevel as the drivers only elected to lead. They communicate in the same generational voice. the downfall is they may not have lead at this pace before and they may not be ready for the chaos of 2min at a FIRST comp. I think allot of it comes down to the people you have in place, it will always be a year to year thing with our team. Do we have a student capable, do we have a mentor capable, who do the students want.

[smurfgirl]

As others have mentioned, there have been many discussions about student vs. adult coaches here. I have posted in many of those topics, and my opinion remains the same throughout: do what is best for your team. A student coach or an adult coach can work, but it depends on the dynamics and values of your team. You want to choose the coach that is best for your team. On some teams, this may be a student, while on other teams, this may be an adult.

The number one most important thing in a coach is respect: you want a coach that your drive team and your entire team respects. You also want a coach that other teams will respect. And it works both ways... your coach should also respect the members of your drive team, your team, and other teams and their drive teams. Then, of course, you want a coach with a knack for strategy with the ability to plan ahead, think on his/her feet, work with others, and analyze situations well... because that is what a coach does.

There are many great reasons for adult coaches, and there are many great reasons for student coaches. You can find many of them by searching for these great debates. The bottom line remains that you should do what is best for your team, rather than choose something simply because it looks glamorous to you or because "everyone good is doing it". Maybe what they are doing is right for you, but then again maybe it is not. Think critically about your decisions and what is best for your team, and you will go far.


Good luck!

Ellen

[camtunkpa]

The adult/student coach debate will go on forever. I can tell you I've been on all sides. I was a student coach in 1998, a driver in 1999 coached by a student coach, a driver in 2000 coached by an adult and now I'm an adult coach out on the floor.

I can tell you that coaching as a student and driving coached by a student were some stressful times. In neither case did I feel fully prepared to go out onto the field and compete. It seemed like in both cases things would be very quick to turn into arguments and plans fell apart quickly.

Well in 2000 222 decided to give adult coaches a try. I learned many things from the 2000 season. My adult coach sat back during strategy sessions and still let us students do the talking. The only times he would interject is if strategies were getting too farfetched, unorganized or of course if we asked him to. Our coach during the match play also took a different role. He allowed the drivers to do the thinking for the most part and was there to tell us how much time was in the match, and to talk to the other alliance and make sure everything was going ok for them. We had our first real successful year as a team in 2000. There was little bickering going on after the matches, the coach acted as a shield of sorts when other excited adult mentors didn't agree with how the match went. We went through the next couple years bouncing around different adult coaches who had very different coaching styles. Some were aggressive and dominant coaches and others were too laid back.

In 2004 I began coaching the drivers. I worked hard to find my place on the field. The way I started was I was a spokesman for our team and the drivers would sit back and interject. We did extremely well at our 1st regional going undefeated during the qualifiers and finished the competition as a finalist. We moved onto our second regional where I ran into a stubborn mentor. We were the first pick of our alliance. Our alliance made it all the way to the finals. We lost the first match of the finals and used our timeout after the match because the alliance captain had a mechanical problem. Well the coach was being extremely stubborn and wanted to put a non functional robot out on the field and have us sit out with a completely ready to go robot. After many minutes of going back and fourth i convinced the coach to let us go out and they could continue working on their machine to be ready for the next match. We won the match forcing the finals to 3 matches. 2004 was a huge learning year for me as an adult coach.

After the 2004 season I changed my coaching style for two reasons: #1 was because I wanted my students to be more involved & it seemed like when strategizing with all student drive teams they were somewhat intimidated. I dediced to have the students talk strategy and would interject now and again with ideas. I began using my coaching role as less of an individual coach and more of an alliance coordinator of sorts.

2009 was our most successful year as a team on and off the field. The students did a good job working out strategies. They did such a good job that I was really not much more then a spotter of sorts calling out time and telling the guys what to look out for. I spent the majority of my time making sure everything else was going smoothly with our partners and relaying to my drivers what needed to change. I believe this method of coaching was the best of both worlds and also what allowed us to do so well this year.

I hope this rambling post has given some insite to all sides of the student/adult coach debate.

Remember success in FIRST isn't measured by the trophies. It's measured by the inspiration.

[SushaK]

i actually like this rule. on 461 we always have mentors as drive coaches and no student can even try to be a drive coach. and to be honest although adult coaches do have more experience, student coaches can always bring new ideas and ways to accomplish tasks. also, every year the game changes so no matter how much experience someone has they are never quite prepared for what's really out on the field. i say give students a chance!!!

[EricLeifermann]

I really hate to say it but all these topics about

"the way we do it is the right way"

and

"you can't do it that way if you really want to inspire your kids"

is starting to remind me of people arguing about politics and religion. It isn't going to get you anywhere. Let people believe what they want to believe and let teams do what they want to do.

I don't think teams who have an adult or teams who have students coach are really missing out on anything. If they have a way they like to run things who are all of you to say they can't?

[Chris is me]

I didn't mean to imply that the method I prefer is the only way to inspire people, but that the question of whether an adult coach or a student coach will inspire more (4 inspired versus 3 more heavily inspired) is itself debatable, as is the issue at hand.

I don't think there's anything wrong with healthy debate on the issue at hand. That is, until people start saying that their way is the best and people start taking subtle or not so subtle shots at teams that do it differently.

This is pretty much going to end the same way every single "mentor built" thread is, huh? You'd think FIRST actually encouraging both students and adults to both be field coaches would be a hint that both is the right answer.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

You'd think FIRST actually encouraging both students and adults to both be field coaches would be a hint that both is the right answer.

There's a lot of weight of responsibility that goes with making decisions for FRC teams that are sincerely trying to achieve the goals and mission of FIRST. The responsibilities include teams making their own decisions regarding how they run things and how they are going to achieve success. They are given homework and they are provided guidelines. They are also encouraged to submit Chairmans, videos, business plans. Those reflect how the team has structured itself and how it is implementing methods and ways of sustaining itself and accomplishing the goals it has set.

Maturity on the parts of the mentors, students, and the team, itself - would go a long way in carrying the weight of the responsibility well. By doing that, FIRST removes itself from the position of micro-managing and helicopter parenting, allowing for freedom to explore, create, innovate, and have some good hard fun. Coaching is a part of that.

[Keri Lynne]

Adult coaches have so much to offer on and off the field. Speaking as a driver-I found that when I was controlling the robot on the field it was a comfort to have someone who was experienced in coaching there to easily guide me through the more challenging matches. Since most adult coaches are seasoned veterans, they have lots of advice to offer. Personally, some of the best advice I recieved was from my coach.

It is also good to have an adult around when things go sour. If a match doesn’t turn out exactly the way you hoped it is good to have someone you look up to there to remind you to act professionally and humbly. It seems like adults are more likely to act level headed and accepting in moments of defeat.

One of the things adult coaches have to offer off the field is the connection with the other teams and coaches that can only be built over years of interaction and friendship. It seems like our adult coach knew the coach of almost every team we played with this season, and he introduced me to some remarkable people that he has met over the years. Getting to meet such interesting and influencial people was an absolute joy. There was nothing more exciting than being introduced to someone I had heard to be one of the best coaches in FIRST while just waiting for our match. I dont think this level of connection and communication would be the same without adult coaches on the field.

Working with the mentors is one of the most enjoyable parts of FRC. Learning from someone with years of experience and building friendships with the mentors has personally been one of my favorite parts of this program. I feel that if adult coaches were eliminated, a major part of this would also be lost. Why should this education and bonding end on the field?

[NickE]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

You'd think FIRST actually encouraging both students and adults to both be field coaches would be a hint that both is the right answer.

Not everything needs to have a right answer.

[nlknauss]

Originally Posted by NickE

Not everything needs to have a right answer.

Absolutely Nick! That's a part of the experience this program has to offer; there are many solutions to the same problem and they all work! It's up to each team to redesign and retool their solution to increase their effectiveness.