[FTC]: FVC (Vex) VS. FTC (Tetrix)

[jbbjjbt]

I would be interested in hearing pros/cons of VRC versus FTC from those of you who have done both. I have a good idea of the cost difference but what about things like what the kids learn and how much fun they had?

Thanks,

[IndySam]

We do VEX and I have reffed FTC so I have some experience with both.

The thing to remember is that they are tools and the experience depends on the teams and mentors that the students work with. Both are great and provide lots of fun learning opportunities.

You have to look at your area and which can provide your students with the best experience. Here in Indiana VEX is big and there is little FTC activity so VEX is the way to go here.

To put a plug in for VEX I will say that the international experience at the VEX World Championship is amazing.

[Chris is me]

I much, much, much, much prefer the Vex parts to the FTC kit. FTC's kit has less parts (no omnis, tank treads, etc. this year), is much less well made, requires you to machine your own aluminium and polycarbonate parts for some features, has worse wheels, and can be more expensive than the Vex equivalent. Vex is simply better in my opinion, and switching to the new kit is probably one of my least favorite decisions FIRST's made.

I have not competed in VRC though, or the "new" FTC.

[NalaTI]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

<snip> no omnis,<snip>

Actually there is an Omni this year... you can find it at ftcrobots.com (where you get the official parts).

Originally Posted by Chris is me

(Tetrix) is much less well made
<snip>
I have not competed in VRC though, or the "new" FTC.

Interesting, Your opinions are pretty vehement for someone that hasn't used the new equipment... my team has, and one of the things (last year) that was allowed was using VEX structural materials. We did that for some basic shielding and found that the VEX parts had to be filed and cleaned up because of rough edges to pass inspection, the Tetrix stuff didnt. The VEX stuff definitely seemed cheaper and flimsier - enough so that we were glad we didn't use it for framework materials.

Originally Posted by Chris is me

requires you to machine your own aluminium and polycarbonate parts for some features

That can be taken as a good or a bad thing... if you want to have the opportunity to construct your own unique part, you can do that...

Some of the points Chris raised are extremely valid, the parts are more expensive, there's some gears and some other stuff that's also missing. But, it seems to me that each system has it's advantages.

It's going to be an interesting discussion, I think you will find that there will be a lot of vocal opinions from the people that used VEX in the FTC and didn't transfer to the new system. They have a huge investment in parts and knowledge that is hard to discount. But those of us who started last year have no such issues.

[Akash Rastogi]

I would have to 100% agree with Chris.

Just because of the way some things in FIRST work, we had to have two FTC teams but also signed up VRC teams for the new year. Nobody on the team wanted to even spend money on, what we thought, was the over hyped FTC tetrix kit. If we didn't also have a FTC team though it would look bad for a team's image.

Our kids really hated the kit from this year. The cost was nowhere near competitive enough to keep us out of VEX and the quality of the VEX parts is that much better as well.

If we had the choice that didn't make the team look bad for dropping FTC altogether, we would just have 5 VRC teams at the high school. The school even questioned why we spent money from the budget on FTC kits if the kids didn't like them.

[bellpride]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

If we had the choice that didn't make the team look bad for dropping FTC altogether, we would just have 5 VRC teams at the high school. The school even questioned why we spent money from the budget on FTC kits if the kids didn't like them.

I don't think other teams would think worse of you if you choose to make that decision. When FTC switched to the Tetrix kit, 254 and 1114 both switched exclusively to VRC (1114 already had a VRC team), and a quite a few FRC teams started VRC teams this year, like 148. Others like 294 chose to keep both and participate in three programs.

I don't think there can be a clear comparison between the two. IFI has chosen to keep costs low and to provide a cheap(er) way for students to participate in robotics, but FIRST seems to have other ideas. We are very happy with our VRC program - we fielded 5 teams last year, and will probably register more this year. In the end, they both give kids about the same experience (I think VRC is better since there are many more teams involved), but VRC does so for far less money, especially as for veterans and multi-team programs.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by bellpride

I don't think other teams would think worse of you if you choose to make that decision. When FTC switched to the Tetrix kit, 254 and 1114 both switched exclusively to VRC (1114 already had a VRC team), and a quite a few FRC teams started VRC teams this year, like 148. Others like 294 chose to keep both and participate in three programs.

We've never done FRC, but we had three FTC teams in 2007-2008 (and two the year before) when FIRST used VEX. In 2008-2009 we had five VRC and three FTC teams. No one in the local FIRST community has said a single negative word about our participating in VRC. I wouldn't worry about it in any event, but it's good to remember that the FIRST volunteers and students who "get it" won't care which program you participate in as long as you remember the mission of service to youth.

I don't think there can be a clear comparison between the two. IFI has chosen to keep costs low and to provide a cheap(er) way for students to participate in robotics, but FIRST seems to have other ideas.

Based on what our students want to do and the realities of the relative costs, we are fielding one FTC team and 6-8 VRC teams this upcoming year. The deciding factors came down to three things: product ease of use and reliability, cost, and our experience at championship events. Most of our students prefer the VEX platform, the mentors prefer the cost of VEX, and the VEX World Championships are a LOT more fun for the middle-sized robotics teams than Atlanta. I know FIRST tries, but Atlanta is for FRC -- we felt like second-class citizens at Championships (at least in 2008).

Somewhere around here I have an Excel spreadsheet that some team put together comparing the programs in detail. Send me a PM if you would like a copy. This is NOT my spreadsheet, by the way, I'm just passing along someone else's evaluation. Unfortunately, I do not know who wrote it originally. YMMV.

[ttldomination]

The VRC vs. FTC is a debate all on its own.

For VRC, I like the fact that there is simply more that you can DO with the VEX kits. There's virtually nothing stopping you.

In FTC, I find that the competition experience on its own is nice, although this past season, the issues surrounding the new kit (mainly programming/connectivity) got to be extremely frustrating, but I would like to do it again simply because of what we CAN do. I love have metal gears, I love having stronger motors to work with. I don't like how the weaker motors aren't very compatible with the new kit.

It's an interesting thing, but I can say that they both carry their own little charisma.

[Rich Kressly]

Disclaimer:
I'm a part time VEX consultant with IFI as most of you know, however...

I'm also a huge advocate for FIRST and its ideals and, as a full time teacher, I also run an FRC team - we run Jr. FLL Expos and I just ordered an FLL kit for a team in my home community. When I was serving on the FTC GDC during the time when FIRST was changing platforms to the new one, I had a decision to make. There are only so many hours in a day, only so many good causes I can get involved with, and I always look for the opportunity to inspire the most students possible as part of fulfilling FIRST's mission.

Also at the time of the changeover our school district had started a robotics course, we were heavily invested in VEX equipment, and we heavily invested in teacher and student training as well. VEX in the curriculum, VEX after school as a "junior varsity" to our FRC team, VEX as part of our affordable and portable outreach program. It all made sense for me and for our team to stick with VEX going forward. 1712 members have volunteered at FTC events and I did what I could to help transition work of the FTC GDC, but it was clear to me how I could most efficiently serve our mission.

I suppose it all comes down to what you want out of the experience and how you desire to serve the mission. If your organization can handle the higher fees and equipment prices and you want to have a team experience competing in FTC with FIRST, great for you. If you want to have teams in both FTC and VRC and you can afford it and you have the expertise to pull it off, good for you.

If you want to inspire the highest number of students possible, integrate in the curriculum in middle school or high school, want to be able to demo multiple robots at the same time without the need for laptops and bluetooth communication, then to me there really is only one choice at this point in time in history and in the foreseeable future.

I'm good friends with some who serve FTC and I wish them the best going forward to serve so many students who have yet to be reached by any robotics/STEM activity. I'm hoping not too many folks out there are worried about "image." Almost everywhere I go, our team gets great feedback on all of our activities regardless of program affiliation. NASA, FIRST's biggest supporter, has always supported a wide variety of related STEM activities, including Botball and VRC. I believe there's even a "Dave Lavery Award" in Botball.

I know not everyone shares my opinion of this, but our program at 1712 will go forward proudly with FRC, VRC, and a host of other things if they make sense for us too. We proudly display both logos on our website at dawgma.lmtechclub.org and we proudly market our program, documenting the strengths and benefits of all we are involved in. If someday that ever hurts my team's "image" in the eyes of anyone related to FIRST, then so be it. I can't help for, nor do I worry about anyone else who may be shortsighted as to the goals of our mission. The REAL elephant in the room here is "does this hurt my team's chances of winning award xyz?" I would submit that it would all be helpful, however if a judging panel were to view it otherwise, then I suppose it would be an award my team wouldn't care too much for anyway.

namaste
-do what serves the mission best in your community.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

The REAL elephant in the room here is "does this hurt my team's chances of winning award xyz?" I would submit that it would all be helpful, however if a judging panel were to view it otherwise, then I suppose it would be an award my team wouldn't care too much for anyway.

namaste
-do what serves the mission best in your community.

Thank you, Rich. That's pretty much what I wanted to hear.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by NalaTI

Interesting, Your opinions are pretty vehement for someone that hasn't used the new equipment... my team has, and one of the things (last year) that was allowed was using VEX structural materials. We did that for some basic shielding and found that the VEX parts had to be filed and cleaned up because of rough edges to pass inspection, the Tetrix stuff didnt. The VEX stuff definitely seemed cheaper and flimsier - enough so that we were glad we didn't use it for framework materials.

I haven't competed with the equipment or done any extensive bench testing (as I'm not a real engineer), but these were my first impressions. You're right in that my opinion should hold a lot less weight than those who competed with it, but these are sentiments many of my peers share, or at least the ones I've talked to.

That can be taken as a good or a bad thing... if you want to have the opportunity to construct your own unique part, you can do that...

I kind of think that should be FRC turf, personally. If you get a leg up by finding a machine shop and making stuff, why not just go full size?

I'll leave discussing "FTC is good" to the people that have competed with it, but in my short time working with the material I hated it.

[jbbjjbt]

Originally Posted by IndySam

We do VEX and I have reffed FTC so I have some experience with both.

The thing to remember is that they are tools and the experience depends on the teams and mentors that the students work with. Both are great and provide lots of fun learning opportunities.

You have to look at your area and which can provide your students with the best experience. Here in Indiana VEX is big and there is little FTC activity so VEX is the way to go here.

To put a plug in for VEX I will say that the international experience at the VEX World Championship is amazing.

We're from Virginia and have competed in Virginia, Maryland and Delaware in FTC using both Tetrix and Vex systems. In VA, FTC is very popular with over 60 teams. In Maryland both FTC and VRC are popular. At the state level FTC has been a fantastic experience with incredibly caring and dedicated volunteers.

Could you tell us more about the VEX World Championship experience?

Thanks,

[JesseK]

The REAL elephant in the room here is "does this hurt my team's chances of winning award xyz?" I would submit that it would all be helpful, however if a judging panel were to view it otherwise, then I suppose it would be an award my team wouldn't care too much for anyway.

This hit the nail right on the head. Teams can get burned out on awards. I know mentors do, all the time. There are two major points I'll make:

• We've moved away from being 'Team 1885' driven for our county-wide initiatives and more 'Prince William County' driven. We take all of our FIRST 'awards' and used them as leverage for more corporate support, and now we're seeing huge county-wide benefits for it. Simply put, it's become such that we no longer need FIRST's recognition (via awards) to garner corporate support for county-wide activities. The school board has been a key stakeholder in this process, yet I can honestly say that I believe FIRST falls short in recognizing that potential on a national level.
  
• Any 9th grade student would easily become overwhelmed by our history and the 5 robotics initiatives 1885 and 2068 have started in the county since our inceptions. Eventually all of our robotics students participate in these initiatives via mentoring, so it can be overwhelming for a first-time student.

That said, 1885 did FTC last year so that our students would be better-versed in LabView should we use it in future years in FRC. I like the simplicity of the 'new' FTC and the fact that championship-attending FTC teams in 2009 had double the average regional score. On the contrary, VEX can be extremely complicated to do if students only use the kit for 1 year of competition. We also told ourselves 'Let's face it -- our students will never be able to compete on the same level as VRC teams who have 4th-year students'; that and other reasons made the choice very obvious for our specific situation.

FRC isn't sustainable in all 10 county high schools, so we had to figure out how else to continue the vision of FIRST, including exploring other non-FIRST avenues. That said, VEX is primarily done in our middle schools in STEM-specific classes though it started as VEX only, not VRC or FTC. FLL is now being done in middle schools' general curriculum and some elementary school extracurricular activities, and jFLL will be done in many elementary schools. On top of that, we have the only* underwater robotics competition curriculum in the country that's implemented in all high schools county-wide (SeaPerch). Finally, since I'm completely against students getting to have all of the fun, the proposed new VEX controller will probably be exactly what I want for my master's program research project, which won't start until January 2011 (so get working on it IFI!).

The whole FTC vs FVC debate, to me, is moot. Do what fits in your local situation, but never lose sight of the big picture. Awards matter for leverage and egos only, so use them wisely and move on. Judges seem to get bored after two hours of explaining the what's, why's and how's for everything a team has accomplished so don't burn yourself out on it. FIRST is nearing perfection for mentor-based science & engineering education on a large scale, yet I believe students still need to be "given a kit, go off to a corner, build a robot in X time, and compete with it" ** at some point so they can learn their own individual potential.

*that I've found
**sorry Dave :/

[bellpride]

Originally Posted by jbbjjbt

Could you tell us more about the VEX World Championship experience?

I was at Atlanta in 2008 and Dallas in 2009, and I think that the VRC championship in Dallas was a much better experience, mostly because:

1. We felt like a sideshow at Atlanta (somebody already mentioned this). Obviously, there were teams with large cheering sections in FTC (Overdrive, Driven), but for the most part the crowd watching the FTC fields was pretty insignificant compared to the ones on Newton and Archimedes on either side and Einstein behind us.
2. Dallas had more than twice the teams that Atlanta had, partly because the registration was a quarter the cost. IFI also chose to mix different divisions in the pits, which provided much better opportunities to meet other teams than the separated pits in FTC 2008.
3. Because the registration fees were so low in VRC, schools could afford to field multiple teams (involving more people). There were 3 people in 254's FTC pit, but 15 in our VRC pit, divided among 5 teams.
4. The team party was significantly better than Atlanta. It doesn't really matter to FRC teams, but the Atlanta party is also the day after FTC ends.

VRC also has large regional tournaments like Championship of the Americas and the Pan-Pacific Championship, which provide the same atmosphere as Dallas for a slightly lower cost.

[gblake]

Something to add to JesseK's list of comparisons is the list of 5 (at least) open VRC tournaments available within a 2 hour drive of Virginia's Prince William County; and the two (a scrimmage plus a regional) "closed" tournaments the county schools are going to put on for the school system's middle schools.

I enjoy being able to take my team to several VRC Regional tournaments each season (Starting Oct 31st this year and ending shortly before the World Championships). I enjoy seeing the 5-ish teams from two county high schools out there cooperating and competing with us.

I enjoy organizing one of those tournaments; and I enjoy volunteering in the rest (and in the FTC events, and in some FRC events). These several VRC Regionals aren't quite as fancy as the MD and VA FTC championships, but they are more plentiful.

For both FTC and VRC I like that good middle schools students can hold their own against older students.

For both FTC and VRC I enjoy that 4H clubs, home schooling groups, and plain old clusters of friends are finding their way into the programs; and are often excelling.

I think FTC has an edge in explicit connections to college scholarships. For students nearing the end of high school that can be an important reason to form an FTC team.

I like that VRC has a college-level division. Our local community college system just used Vex parts in a couple of summer workshops for students. Now, if they care to, they can use the workshop's equipment to enter the college level competition.

Finally, being able to easily (I think) organize an official VRC regional by finding a modest number of teams, a modest amount of money, and then just following the tournament rules, is one aspect of VRC's lower barriers-to-entry that I like about the VRC program. I feel like it is a good step in the direction of having STEM/Robotics become a part of each community (like little league baseball, soccer, dance lessons, Scouts, etc.). The SEAPerch program Jesse mentions has similar low barriers-to-entry advantages.

Blake