[FTC]: FVC (Vex) VS. FTC (Tetrix)

[jbbjjbt]

Originally Posted by IndySam

We do VEX and I have reffed FTC so I have some experience with both.

The thing to remember is that they are tools and the experience depends on the teams and mentors that the students work with. Both are great and provide lots of fun learning opportunities.

You have to look at your area and which can provide your students with the best experience. Here in Indiana VEX is big and there is little FTC activity so VEX is the way to go here.

To put a plug in for VEX I will say that the international experience at the VEX World Championship is amazing.

We're from Virginia and have competed in Virginia, Maryland and Delaware in FTC using both Tetrix and Vex systems. In VA, FTC is very popular with over 60 teams. In Maryland both FTC and VRC are popular. At the state level FTC has been a fantastic experience with incredibly caring and dedicated volunteers.

Could you tell us more about the VEX World Championship experience?

Thanks,

[JesseK]

The REAL elephant in the room here is "does this hurt my team's chances of winning award xyz?" I would submit that it would all be helpful, however if a judging panel were to view it otherwise, then I suppose it would be an award my team wouldn't care too much for anyway.

This hit the nail right on the head. Teams can get burned out on awards. I know mentors do, all the time. There are two major points I'll make:

• We've moved away from being 'Team 1885' driven for our county-wide initiatives and more 'Prince William County' driven. We take all of our FIRST 'awards' and used them as leverage for more corporate support, and now we're seeing huge county-wide benefits for it. Simply put, it's become such that we no longer need FIRST's recognition (via awards) to garner corporate support for county-wide activities. The school board has been a key stakeholder in this process, yet I can honestly say that I believe FIRST falls short in recognizing that potential on a national level.
  
• Any 9th grade student would easily become overwhelmed by our history and the 5 robotics initiatives 1885 and 2068 have started in the county since our inceptions. Eventually all of our robotics students participate in these initiatives via mentoring, so it can be overwhelming for a first-time student.

That said, 1885 did FTC last year so that our students would be better-versed in LabView should we use it in future years in FRC. I like the simplicity of the 'new' FTC and the fact that championship-attending FTC teams in 2009 had double the average regional score. On the contrary, VEX can be extremely complicated to do if students only use the kit for 1 year of competition. We also told ourselves 'Let's face it -- our students will never be able to compete on the same level as VRC teams who have 4th-year students'; that and other reasons made the choice very obvious for our specific situation.

FRC isn't sustainable in all 10 county high schools, so we had to figure out how else to continue the vision of FIRST, including exploring other non-FIRST avenues. That said, VEX is primarily done in our middle schools in STEM-specific classes though it started as VEX only, not VRC or FTC. FLL is now being done in middle schools' general curriculum and some elementary school extracurricular activities, and jFLL will be done in many elementary schools. On top of that, we have the only* underwater robotics competition curriculum in the country that's implemented in all high schools county-wide (SeaPerch). Finally, since I'm completely against students getting to have all of the fun, the proposed new VEX controller will probably be exactly what I want for my master's program research project, which won't start until January 2011 (so get working on it IFI!).

The whole FTC vs FVC debate, to me, is moot. Do what fits in your local situation, but never lose sight of the big picture. Awards matter for leverage and egos only, so use them wisely and move on. Judges seem to get bored after two hours of explaining the what's, why's and how's for everything a team has accomplished so don't burn yourself out on it. FIRST is nearing perfection for mentor-based science & engineering education on a large scale, yet I believe students still need to be "given a kit, go off to a corner, build a robot in X time, and compete with it" ** at some point so they can learn their own individual potential.

*that I've found
**sorry Dave :/

[bellpride]

Originally Posted by jbbjjbt

Could you tell us more about the VEX World Championship experience?

I was at Atlanta in 2008 and Dallas in 2009, and I think that the VRC championship in Dallas was a much better experience, mostly because:

1. We felt like a sideshow at Atlanta (somebody already mentioned this). Obviously, there were teams with large cheering sections in FTC (Overdrive, Driven), but for the most part the crowd watching the FTC fields was pretty insignificant compared to the ones on Newton and Archimedes on either side and Einstein behind us.
2. Dallas had more than twice the teams that Atlanta had, partly because the registration was a quarter the cost. IFI also chose to mix different divisions in the pits, which provided much better opportunities to meet other teams than the separated pits in FTC 2008.
3. Because the registration fees were so low in VRC, schools could afford to field multiple teams (involving more people). There were 3 people in 254's FTC pit, but 15 in our VRC pit, divided among 5 teams.
4. The team party was significantly better than Atlanta. It doesn't really matter to FRC teams, but the Atlanta party is also the day after FTC ends.

VRC also has large regional tournaments like Championship of the Americas and the Pan-Pacific Championship, which provide the same atmosphere as Dallas for a slightly lower cost.

[gblake]

Something to add to JesseK's list of comparisons is the list of 5 (at least) open VRC tournaments available within a 2 hour drive of Virginia's Prince William County; and the two (a scrimmage plus a regional) "closed" tournaments the county schools are going to put on for the school system's middle schools.

I enjoy being able to take my team to several VRC Regional tournaments each season (Starting Oct 31st this year and ending shortly before the World Championships). I enjoy seeing the 5-ish teams from two county high schools out there cooperating and competing with us.

I enjoy organizing one of those tournaments; and I enjoy volunteering in the rest (and in the FTC events, and in some FRC events). These several VRC Regionals aren't quite as fancy as the MD and VA FTC championships, but they are more plentiful.

For both FTC and VRC I like that good middle schools students can hold their own against older students.

For both FTC and VRC I enjoy that 4H clubs, home schooling groups, and plain old clusters of friends are finding their way into the programs; and are often excelling.

I think FTC has an edge in explicit connections to college scholarships. For students nearing the end of high school that can be an important reason to form an FTC team.

I like that VRC has a college-level division. Our local community college system just used Vex parts in a couple of summer workshops for students. Now, if they care to, they can use the workshop's equipment to enter the college level competition.

Finally, being able to easily (I think) organize an official VRC regional by finding a modest number of teams, a modest amount of money, and then just following the tournament rules, is one aspect of VRC's lower barriers-to-entry that I like about the VRC program. I feel like it is a good step in the direction of having STEM/Robotics become a part of each community (like little league baseball, soccer, dance lessons, Scouts, etc.). The SEAPerch program Jesse mentions has similar low barriers-to-entry advantages.

Blake

[Rick TYler]

I've collected some "typical" cost data for FLL,VRC, and FTC. The FLL and FTC cost data came from FIRST WA and USFIRST sources, and the VRC data came from me (we are in our fourth year running a multi-team VEX program, so I consider "me" a pretty reliable source). I've included FLL as it is FIRST's middle-school program, and VRC is also used by a number of middle school programs.

Disclaimer: Like Rich Kressley, I consult for IFI.

I estimated costs for a classroom-sized team with four robots for all programs, and estimated costs for the initial year of competition, and then the second year when fewer parts must be purchased. None of the cost estimates include shipping or taxes. Link to spreadsheet: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2285

First year cost estimates for four teams:

VEX Robotics Competition: $3,596
FIRST LEGO League: $3,095
FIRST Tech Challenge: $6,796

Additional year cost estimates for four teams:

VEX Robotics Competition: $800
FIRST LEGO League: $1,365
FIRST Tech Challenge: $2,796

If you go to the linked spreadsheet it is pretty easy to change the values to ones that seem good to you. I hope you enjoy playing with the spreadsheet, and make sure you look at the "Expense Graphs" tab, too.

[JesseK]

Using "me" as a credible source sometimes leads to the paradox of knowledge: you can't unlearn what you now know as fact and don't remember not knowing so long ago.

Sigh, the rest is in a PM.

[Rick TYler]

JesseK sent me a thoughtful PM, and I encourage you to do what JesseK did -- pull up the spreadsheet and enter your own figures.

This year, VEX is introducing a new WiFi controller and field management system, which some tournaments will require this year and others won't. The spreadsheet has a line item for this, which was left blank when I ran my numbers. If you include the $149 upgrade as a first-year expense, and purchase an extra remote control and some extra $20 motors, the first year VRC expense for four teams goes up to a little under $5,000.

Similarly, I based the FTC numbers off of what FIRST says, including $300 for "additional parts." Last year, our FTC teams spent far more than that -- at least $500 per team, mostly for extra gears, motor and servo controllers, and replacement motors. Since the new FTC rules seem to allow ANY LEGO component, and not just the ones in the FTC kit, I foresee teams spending more on LEGO than they did last year. Your mileage may vary, so pull up that spreadsheet and put in your own numbers.

JesseK also said that the recurring costs are higher than I estimated. In our experience, we plan to budget about 20% of parts cost per year in upgrades and replacements. I used lower figures than that for both FTC and VRC, but for MY teams (who tend to spend pretty heavily) we would use the higher numbers. I included lower numbers for recurring costs than our own teams' expenses, but we also buy things like aluminum frame kits and all the new parts that come out, so we are at the high end. I see lots of successful VEX robots that clearly cost less than ours. We are also a fourth-year program that has never stopped raising money, so we can afford the new toys.

Honest, I wasn't trying to pull a fast one here. Use the spreadsheet (or don't) to figure out the financial aspect of which is the best program for you. Obviously, money is only one aspect of this decision, so don't forget to look at other things like how well a certain program meets your own educational goals, local tournament availability, and local volunteer support.

[Akash Rastogi]

LOL

so this morning I got an email from our robotics teacher that the kids in our Elementary Robotics course chose the VEX game and kit over the FTC game and kit. 22 kids in each of the elem robotics classes didn't want to work on the FTC robot at all....that's kinda telling me something important.

I liked the FTC game A LOT this year and I'm pretty bummed I won't be mentoring a team to build a robot for it.

[Chris is me]

I'd pick the Vex kit, but the FTC game personally... I'm surprised that not one person would want to do FTC...

Anyway, this means that you and I have to make a team!

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

LOL

so this morning I got an email from our robotics teacher that the kids in our Elementary Robotics course chose the VEX game and kit over the FTC game and kit. 22 kids in each of the elem robotics classes didn't want to work on the FTC robot at all....that's kinda telling me something important.

I liked the FTC game A LOT this year and I'm pretty bummed I won't be mentoring a team to build a robot for it.

I'm pretty sure that these students were given some prior information other than simply "Hey, choose one." That would probably have influenced their decision.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

I'm pretty sure that these students were given some prior information other than simply "Hey, choose one." That would probably have influenced their decision.

Actually playing with the kits will usually do it.

With Vex, they have lots of wheels and tank treads and spur gears and roller chain and omni wheels and bevel gears and differential gears and worm gears and high strength chain and grippy tank tread attachments and intake rollers and motors that don't burn out and a huge variety of metal parts and linear glides and the list goes on and on.

Whether there is a FIRST or VEX banner at the competition, the kids still have fun and still get inspired. (And isn't that the whole point of this? To inspire kids?) So it comes down to the kits (and costs), and practically everyone I've talked to (students and mentors) gives the advantage to Vex in both categories hands down.

[NalaTI]

This is really kind of a religious/political argument (like Mac vs PC)

Both sides have reasons they like what they do, and there are people that are adamant that they are right and there are people that can go either way.

artdutra04 wrote:

Whether there is a FIRST or VEX banner at the competition, the kids still have fun and still get inspired. (And isn't that the whole point of this? To inspire kids?)

That's really the most important thing.

When you compare the two, the students that have used both and prefer VEX have good points. But the people that I've talked to that made the decision to switch from VEX to Tetrix also have really good things to say about the new stuff.

VEX is a more mature product, Tetrix is the new upstart. Yes, strictly from a cost standpoint VEX is cheaper. Strictly from a structural quality, Tetrix is better. We could go on and on with a comparison, but really it's more of a preference thing.

We decided to go with Tetrix because A) we'd never used either, B) we wanted to stay within the FIRST organization, C) since it was new, and so were we, we'd all (all the teams) be starting at the same level playing field.

If I was a brand new team that had no experience with either VEX or FTC this year, I'd probably come to exactly the same decision, for exactly the same reasons...

[JVN]

Originally Posted by NalaTI

Strictly from a structural quality, Tetrix is better.

Want to explain that one?

[NalaTI]

Originally Posted by JVN

Want to explain that one?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sTlYdhwqT5...el-weights.jpg

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by JVN

Want to explain that one?

Their 2008-9 robot makes good use of VEX materials: http://www.technoguards.org/sites/de...s/DSCN1638.jpg.