Pre-college or high school aged?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I was a member of the drive team this year while taking classes at a four year college (I was not enrolled in the school and the classes were being used as high school credit; I am 16 years old so I'm high school aged). It was considered free and clear for me to drive in both FTC and FRC as I was taking the college classes as part of a home-schooled high school curriculum.

Was this something your team decided, or did you ask FIRST?

[Trying to Help]

I know that lots of homeschooled kids take college classes before 17/18 years old so it's not surprising to me. This year, depending on who joins our team, we might have one or two members doing that.

And our local public high school has agreements with colleges for high school student dual enrollment. On our old team (we split off), we had a junior who was in the public high school and taking a class at the local state college. So that was never an issue in my mind. It's the student who is completely done and gone from high school that I'm wondering about.

Of all the FIRST members who can take college classes (dual enrollment agreements, close enough to one, etc.), I wonder what percentage takes advantage of that? And, is it higher than the percentage of the general high school population?

Thanks for all the input everyone!

Trying to Help

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Was this something your team decided, or did you ask FIRST?

I asked FIRST. I also asked the referees at the events I drove in (Wisconsin FTC and Championship FTC) if this was okay. This year I was the drive coach anyway so it was a non-issue.

[Molten]

100% sure she can be on the team. I've been in college for 2 years and been on a team for both. Granted, I am a mentor. But I find I learn just as much as I did as a student. And given her circumstance, I'd put her on the books as a mentor but treat her as a student. This being said, she is probably not eligible to drive unless it is cleared with FIRST prior to the competition.

[livesforrobots]

I wish to mention that I've seen a few FIRST teams with Early College High School students on it. One team (forgot their number) I was talking to in DC came from an ECHS school. As best I understand it, ECHSs all but require students to take junior college classwork from freshman year to graduation.

If FIRST really had a problem with students taking college classes, teams from schools like that couldn't exist. (And if they could exist, they wouldn't be able to drive...)

[Carol]

The rules for both FRC and FTC state that the drivers and human player on the drive team must be a pre-college student. Anyone can be the coach or function as any other role on the team. There is no standard definition for pre-college, but each year specific questions are asked in the official forum. (Example - I remember one where a 16 student who had received their GED was considered to not be a pre-college student).

Since she will be attending college during the competition season, my GUESS (and I am not an official FRC source) is that she can do anything on the team but be the driver or HP (or whatever they decide to call those people this year). Whether your team considers her to be a team member and not a mentor is up to your team and how it is organized.

Do you need to have an official answer now? You can always wait until the Forum is up and running. Or ask in the FTC Q&A forum now.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by Carol

The rules for both FRC and FTC state that the drivers and human player on the drive team must be a pre-college student. Anyone can be the coach or function as any other role on the team. There is no standard definition for pre-college, but each year specific questions are asked in the official forum. (Example - I remember one where a 16 student who had received their GED was considered to not be a pre-college student).

Since she will be attending college during the competition season, my GUESS (and I am not an official FRC source) is that she can do anything on the team but be the driver or HP (or whatever they decide to call those people this year). Whether your team considers her to be a team member and not a mentor is up to your team and how it is organized.

Do you need to have an official answer now? You can always wait until the Forum is up and running. Or ask in the FTC Q&A forum now.

I agree with Carol's logic. Within your team, she can do whatever you'd like during meetings etc, but as a student attending college she cannot fulfill roles restricted to "high school age" (this means students attending high school, as far as I can tell) students, like driver, hp, etc.

[Jared Russell]

If a 16 year old who is taking college courses is not a pre-college student, does that mean that a 40 year old who has never attended college is a pre-college student?

Does anyone know if Jeff Gordon ever went to college?

[Fe_Will]

Originally Posted by Jared341

Does anyone know if Jeff Gordon ever went to college?

According to his website he hasn't... but if you get Jeff Gordon we call dibs on Danica Patrick.

[Carol]

But I'm willing to bet that Jeff Gordan did graduate high school, which would make him ineligible

[Josh Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jared341

If a 16 year old who is taking college courses is not a pre-college student, does that mean that a 40 year old who has never attended college is a pre-college student?

This really makes sense. The intent of the rule is for the students to drive and the students to talk with the referees. So that no adults can argue or take over a driving spot. I believe you can interpret this rule when they say "pre-college" to mean "ages 18 and under".

[Chris is me]

I think the rule is left ambiguous because it is rather obvious who should be driving the robot, and making a bunch of sub rules for each and every possible exception to the rule would make the Manual that much longer and cause that many more headaches.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I think the rule is left ambiguous because it is rather obvious who should be driving the robot, and making a bunch of sub rules for each and every possible exception to the rule would make the Manual that much longer and cause that many more headaches.

The problem with that is that what is obvious to one person isn't obvious to another. Ask any lawyer.

[Francis-134]

Originally Posted by Jared341

If a 16 year old who is taking college courses is not a pre-college student, does that mean that a 40 year old who has never attended college is a pre-college student?

Does anyone know if Jeff Gordon ever went to college?

This logic brings up my favorite joke of the season.

Lebron James went from HS to the NBA, therefore is he pre-college? If so, he's the best human player in the game .

Logic would seem to dictate the FIRST's intent for the rule is to either ensure that students are still in high school and not in college/post high school career when they are drivers, operators and human players. This gets murky for home school students because one could say that they are either perpetually in high school or never in high school. In this instance, if they do not have some sort of diploma or GED, it would seem that the most prudent scenario is for the student to cease being on the drive team when they reach the period of time they would have moved on to higher education (if you were born pre-September 1988 for example, you would cease to be a pre-college student in September 2006).

In any case, there's nothing stopping a "mentor" from participating in a way that resembles a student. FIRST was envisioned to make the youth of America(s) more interested in science and technology, no matter their specific age. And I'm sure any mentor will tell you that you never stop learning new things when you are involved in FIRST.

[Molten]

Ok, here's a question people seem to be disregarding. Does the student in question even want to drive? If not, most of this thread has become rather irrelevent.