**FIRST EMAIL**/FIRST Adds District Event Model Alternative to FRC Program

[IndySam]

Wow I hate to bring up the fairness thing but I can't help myself.

Michigan teams are going to get more plays per team, more bang for their buck while the rest of the country is still shelling out full price. Happy for my MI friends but quite frankly that sucks for the rest of us.

The Boilermaker regional once again will bear the brunt of the burden without the Michigan teams that have supported that regional in the past.

Starting in 2011 we are going really to have a two class system, what will FIRST do to help out the teams not eligible for district events?

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by IndySam

Michigan teams are going to get more plays per team, more bang for their buck while the rest of the country is still shelling out full price. Happy for my MI friends but quite frankly that sucks for the rest of us.

I asked about why regionals would not be ready to transition over yet and the biggest point made was the contracts which were arranged for different venues already. The only way there was a chance of being able to set up well run districts (according to my info) for 2010 would be to calculate if the savings from district events would be significant enough to break even with the cost of the already contracted venues for 2010. When calculated, the savings/profit from district events and championship events would not be able to break even with the cost of, in this case, the NJ regional and also bring in profit for FIRST.

Its just something to live with for another season, but I do see and understand your point. I too would have loved to pay a fraction of the cost and play a substantially greater number of matches.

Originally Posted by BrianT103

This area already has an extremely strong volunteer base and a very experienced technical crew.

This is very true, the NYC Regional alone has a volunteer base of nearly 300 people....that is incredible if you think about it.

One thing that I HOPE somehow changes...is the whole situation about not having practice matches...teams have been screwed over too many times when others are unprepared.

I hate being in qualification match #1

[GaryVoshol]

Beside having the volunteer base* and exiting the pre-existing contracts with venues, you have to consider the planning time. FiM had the whole concept down and ready to run by this time last year; it only required approval by FIRST. I don't know how many months of preparation went into getting to that stage. Certainly part of that time was spent coming up with the concept; now that that is done, other areas can work off of it. But it still takes a lot of time and commitments being made, and being made early. Unless some other areas were already working on going to districts and were waiting for this approval to announce it, there isn't time to organize it.

* - You need more than the normal volunteers like pit, queue, refs, field setup, etc. You also have to supply (or find ways to pay for) positions that would normally be FRC-supplied (e.g. FTA) and to replace Show Ready Events people.

[GeorgeTheEng]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Beside having the volunteer base* and exiting the pre-existing contracts with venues, you have to consider the planning time.

Agreed. These events are going need a fair amount of planning. FIRST also needs some time to put in place thier own process and standards for these district events. The MI events were watched closely by FIRST and were supported by a FIRST Bod member. As a number of other states take on this model, FIRST has to document and institutionalize thier requirements and standards. They may even end up needing more staff to help manage that process. On both the local and the national side, it's not worth FIRST jumping
in without spending the required time to get ready for the full deployment of the district model.

On a separate line of thinking, while contracts may be the legal and financial barrier, that what will truely make or break a region is the volunteer base. I know a number of areas have large volunteer bases, multipling the number of events stretches those people. Look at the Mid Atlantic region... From DC up to NYC and you've got 5 regionals. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I am 100% sure that you do not have 5 regionals worth of volunteers. There is a large overlap in that area of volunteers that travel from event to event. If you add districts in 3 or three of those states you've double or tripled the volunteer need but not the volunteer base. There is a burn out factor that needs to be considered.

Look at FTC. The 1st year or two the events drew volunteers mostly from FRC and FLL with little of thier own base. That started to wear on volunteers and makes scheduling very hard. They had to establish thier own volunteer base. The same is going to have to be true of the district model.

Hopefully those of us that fall into the semi-pro volunteer category (i.e. you can go from January to April with less then 3 or so free weekends... in other words most of Chief Delphi's adult, many college, and a number of student readers) will be help create that base. Otherwise, that might be what stretches this system to the max.

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by IndySam

Michigan teams are going to get more plays per team, more bang for their buck while the rest of the country is still shelling out full price. Happy for my MI friends but quite frankly that sucks for the rest of us.

I always saw that as a problem. And while I would like to say "Hey. Our economy sucks, we deserve it," I realize that other states are having the same problem. However, it seems that we're losing A LOT of our support from businesses, which is a result of the auto industry crashing down around our ears. My team is losing a huge GM grant this upcoming year, which has historically been our main source of money, and I know the same is happing for teams all over. Thousands of job cuts have also been cutting adult support - Parents and mentors lose jobs, they have to spend more time looking for and working new ones to support their family, and have less time to support the team, down to transporting their kids to meetings and work sessions.

I don't mean to make Michigan seem like it's a poor state that needs pity, or anything like that. I'm sure that the same thing is happening everywhere around the world. It just seems like we're being hit harder, so it makes a lot of sense for us to get a break (though not necessarily such a large one). Michigan also has a very high concentration of teams, which magnifies the effect of the economy.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by IndySam

Wow I hate to bring up the fairness thing but I can't help myself.

Michigan teams are going to get more plays per team, more bang for their buck while the rest of the country is still shelling out full price. Happy for my MI friends but quite frankly that sucks for the rest of us.

The Boilermaker regional once again will bear the brunt of the burden without the Michigan teams that have supported that regional in the past.

Not only that, but the teams that do attend regionals such as BMR will miss out on the opportunity to play with/against these top-flight MI teams (IRI notwithstanding). Not to say that the BMR attracts lower-level teams (there were several regional winners and the eventual world champs), but taking MI out of the equation drops not only the number of participating teams, but the average level of competition as well.

Something else that has been missed in this discussion is the experience of traveling to extra regionals. I'm sure many students would agree that the highlight of the season (if not year) is traveling to a "distant" site to play with/against "distant" teams. When we went to WMR in '06, I know of at least 6 students on the team for which it was their first time out of the state of Indiana.

That being said, whatever system FIRST goes to, I will most likely support. I realize the people up there are much smarter than I, and I'm sure they'll do the due diligence to come up with the best possible solution for all.

[JohnBoucher]

What did this do to a teams freight costs in Michigan?

[Paul Copioli]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

What did this do to a teams freight costs in Michigan?

John,

Basically, team 217 had no freight costs for the district events or the Michigan State Championship. We took the robot (the two other teams' robots) in our team trailer to the events. The two district events were 10 min (Troy) and 30 min (Cass Tech) from our home facility. The MSC was about 50 minutes from our home facility (Eastern Michigan University).

Many teams were in the same situation as us, but some others (like the teams in northern Michigan, including the Upper Peninsula) had much further travel.

Paul

[JohnBoucher]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

John,

Basically, team 217 had no freight costs for the district events or the Michigan State Championship. We took the robot (the two other teams' robots) in our team trailer to the events. The two district events were 10 min (Troy) and 30 min (Cass Tech) from our home facility. The MSC was about 50 minutes from our home facility (Eastern Michigan University).

Many teams were in the same situation as us, but some others (like the teams in northern Michigan, including the Upper Peninsula) had much further travel.

Paul

Paul,
Thanks for the info. I did not follow the fine points of how the Michigan model worked. A few more points:

• No ship date. (GP rules apply)
• No crate needed
• No freight if you bring it. Were you required to bring it or was shipping an option?
• Were you required to ship to state event? Atlanta?

[Joe Ross]

You can read all of the special Michigan rules here: http://www.firstinmichigan.org/filem...Supplement.pdf

[JaneYoung]

It would take a while for this program to work in states like Texas. There just aren't enough teams.

It is interesting that we have begun to develop new regionals in states like Texas - yet the districts are the up and coming thing for the areas that have many teams. The haves and have nots in areas filled with and lacking teams for the district program - makes for interesting thought. For example, those areas that begin having district tournaments may have that in place for more than one season before other states or countries 'catch up'.

Typically, in Chief Delphi, when the talk begins about the haves/have nots - the powerhouse teams, the teams that have had many more opportunities to compete will be added to that list that separates rather than unifies.

It also puts added pressure on states/areas/countries to quickly get FRC teams formed and competing so that they can 'catch up' with the amount of opportunities that the district programs will provide.

It's going to take a few years for this to find a balance, if there ever will be. New territory to explore while advancing the goals of FIRST. Also, when thinking and talking about this, please keep in mind the amount of effort, forethought, and work that went into Michigan's planning and implementation. That was no small thing and I would guess that they are continuing their work in improving upon last year's efforts.

This is going to be fun to watch unfold, that's for sure. I can see this having a huge impact on Hawaii and in Brazil, just to name a couple of places where costs are astronomical to travel and compete.

[Beth Sweet]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

What did this do to a teams freight costs in Michigan?

In short, for those teams with significant resources, it was beneficial. For teams without access to trucks and trailers, it was somewhat nightmare-ish. I know of teams who had to rent a U-Haul for every competition they attended. There are, contrary to seeming popular belief, teams who benefit from the Fed-Ex shipping.

I wanted to make 1 point in this thread that seems to be overlooked. For those teams interested in having the district system in their area, please be aware that you are required to provide volunteers (kinda takes away the meaning of volunteer doesn't it...) to every competition you attend. Whether you are a team with 100 people, or a team with 5, you must provide "volunteers" if you wish to participate in this system.

In general, I am very disappointed that the BoD has made this decision. I think that it is a big step away from FIRST's values, its mission, and its spoken intentions of the purpose of the program. Many statisticians have quoted you numbers above supporting their invalidations of what I say, I'll leave statistical interpretations up to the individual reading them. The district system invalidates many non-robotic contributions and truly turns this organization into a robotics competition. For many, that's all it has ever been. On a personal note, my contributions in the district system, and what I am able to bring to the table in it are so limited, I will have to seriously consider if I will continue to participate in FIRST.

I wish FIRST the best of luck in its undertaking of this program.

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Beth Sweet

In short, for those teams with significant resources, it was beneficial. For teams without access to trucks and trailers, it was somewhat nightmare-ish. I know of teams who had to rent a U-Haul for every competition they attended. There are, contrary to seeming popular belief, teams who benefit from the Fed-Ex shipping.

In most parts of the country you can rent a U-Haul or similar truck for less than $50 a day. Even if you need to do that four times a season (to and from two competitions), $200 is a whole heck of a lot less than the true cost of shipping a robot-sized crate with Fed Ex (and remember, you only get one free ship and back). Or, find a nearby team who has a crate and ask them to take your robot too. 217 did this for their neighbors; likewise we brought 365's robot to IRI in our trailer.

Originally Posted by Beth Sweet

I wanted to make 1 point in this thread that seems to be overlooked. For those teams interested in having the district system in their area, please be aware that you are required to provide volunteers (kinda takes away the meaning of volunteer doesn't it...) to every competition you attend. Whether you are a team with 100 people, or a team with 5, you must provide "volunteers" if you wish to participate in this system.

If this is one of the compromises that lets us get twice the plays for less money, then so be it. As it is, most of the volunteers at regionals have/had some affiliation with a local team. Moreover, for larger teams, it is often challenging to find a competition-day job for many students (what should our CAD team and animators do? There is a limit to the useful number of scouts). Event volunteer jobs give these students a meaningful task for the day. As for teams of 5 having to give up a volunteer, I believe that exceptions for these situations could probably be made. Larger teams can more than make up the difference. Just because FIRST accepted the district system doesn't mean that every single rule must never change from the pilot season.

Originally Posted by Beth Sweet

In general, I am very disappointed that the BoD has made this decision. I think that it is a big step away from FIRST's values, its mission, and its spoken intentions of the purpose of the program. Many statisticians have quoted you numbers above supporting their invalidations of what I say, I'll leave statistical interpretations up to the individual reading them. The district system invalidates many non-robotic contributions and truly turns this organization into a robotics competition. For many, that's all it has ever been. On a personal note, my contributions in the district system, and what I am able to bring to the table in it are so limited, I will have to seriously consider if I will continue to participate in FIRST.

I wish FIRST the best of luck in its undertaking of this program.

I, and many other FIRSTers, also agree that culture changing awards deserve fair recognition. Again, who is to say that 2009's point structure is the only way that this will work?

[johnr]

Winning a cultural award at a traditional regional doesn't give you a right to play in that regionals finals or the next one you attend. Why should winning one at a district count for more or am i missing something?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by johnr

Winning a cultural award at a traditional regional doesn't give you a right to play in that regionals finals or the next one you attend. Why should winning one at a district count for more or am i missing something?

Winning a cultural award at a traditional regional gives you the right to play at the Championship. Why shouldn't winning one at a district give you an automatic qualification to play at the State championship ?