[FTC]: FVC (Vex) VS. FTC (Tetrix)

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JesseK

This list intentionally has cost left out of it, and is a composite of the posts thus far. I tried to only put things in the list that add to or subtract from a student's experience in either program.

What student's robotics experience has money as no object, though? My FTC experience was very much limited by money; if my FTC budget of $800 would have just gotten me the KoP for Tetrix, and I couldn't machine anything as I was out of money, I would have a much worse experience. If money is irrelavent, you'd be able to afford FRC and the point would be moot really.

[NalaTI]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

What student's robotics experience has money as no object, though? My FTC experience was very much limited by money; if my FTC budget of $800 would have just gotten me the KoP for Tetrix, and I couldn't machine anything as I was out of money, I would have a much worse experience. If money is irrelavent, you'd be able to afford FRC and the point would be moot really.

The members of my team wanted to do FTC because of the limited team size, not because they didn't want to do the big robots. Sure, we didn't have the money to do FRC, but we also didn't look for it. Since the team was only going to have four members, they didn't want to compete with teams of unlimited size. And no, there's no FRC team within 50 miles of us that they could have joined, we'd've had to start our own. If the team can look for and find sponsors, then budget is not the overriding item.

BTW, based on the budgetary number in another thread, $800 would be substantially less than is needed for a VEX competition as well.

If you are limiting your ideas based on money, then you are limiting your ideas...

[Chris is me]

I did Vex for $800 by getting the Kit for $200, $100ish on used regulation batteries and programming, then planned the rest of the robot very carfefully and ordered no more parts than needed. The robot didn't exactly "work" but it could be done. The one event I planned to intend was within driving distance. Not only could I not build the same robot with the Tetrix kit (no tank treads), it would definitely not be possible with just the Kit of Parts and a hacksaw.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

What student's robotics experience has money as no object, though? My FTC experience was very much limited by money; if my FTC budget of $800 would have just gotten me the KoP for Tetrix, and I couldn't machine anything as I was out of money, I would have a much worse experience. If money is irrelavent, you'd be able to afford FRC and the point would be moot really.

I never said "money is no object". The intent of the thread was to find out why else people like one program or the other and the Pro/Con list is meant to return it to that intent rather than squabbling over opinions like little kids.

Money is never irrelevant. In the professional world (and STEM funding world), reasonable cost is usually not the limiting factor when deciding whether or not to fund a program. Since reasonable is a relative term, it really depends on the situation and how well one is able to communicate the justifications and benefits of the cost.

For example, somehow most communities are still able to justify to themselves that they should pay for multi-million dollar high school football stadiums that pay for themselves over a 50 year lifespan. To us this may seem ludicrous, but in reality it just means that those communities haven't seen the immediate benefits or return on investment of FIRST or VEX.

[Foster]

So there are Pro's and Con's for both sides. As with everything in life there are trade offs, you need to look at them and make a decision.

I run a 503(c) to bring robotics to as many students/roboteers as possible. So I come to the table looking for the biggest bang for the dollars that I have. If I can get the same approximate experience for lots less, I'm going to go for the lower cost.

My biggest complaint is that people take catch phrases like "crappy plastic VEX gears" "much stronger metal" and make that into the single reason to change. One of the early posters pointed back to the original "Why we are changing FTC" blog entries and there were concepts bandied about in those entries that the Tetrix materials were significantly better than Vex. We've seen proof that's not the case, but people continue to natter on like it continues to be factual.

Originally Posted by JesseK

Sorry I didn't put a little teeny disclaimer somewhere obvious, I thought people would actually read what I wrote.

You must be new around here

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Foster

My biggest complaint is that people take catch phrases like "crappy plastic VEX gears" "much stronger metal" and make that into the single reason to change. One of the early posters pointed back to the original "Why we are changing FTC" blog entries and there were concepts bandied about in those entries that the Tetrix materials were significantly better than Vex. We've seen proof that's not the case, but people continue to natter on like it continues to be factual.

JVN's major pet peeve in ALL aspects of his life:
If you repeat a lie enough times it starts to become the truth. Not enough people do their own factual comparisons but instead they just repeat generalizations not grounded in quantitative analysis.

-John

[bellpride]

Originally Posted by NalaTI

http://tinyurl.com/krt2o9

Are you inviting JVN to do pull-ups using VEX parts?

Originally Posted by JesseK

Topics that haven't been discussed:

• Number of mentors per student for each program

Zero for our six VRC teams. Many also have zero, some have one or two, very few have a whole bunch.

Originally Posted by JVN

If you repeat a lie enough times it starts to become the truth. Not enough people do their own factual comparisons but instead they just repeat generalizations not grounded in quantitative analysis.

What was most disappointing about the transition was the truly ungracious way in which FIRST pursued it. Tetrix was introduced not only with subtle "lies" like the ones mentioned before, but even through making fun of the VEX Robotics kit (in one blog post, it was even called a toy). I can't imagine how much this offends long-time FIRST-supporting IFI employees, like JVN, Jason Morella, Karthik, and countless others, along with teams which thought their hard work was viewed as real engineering.

The past is the past though. Looking at the replies, I think the current FTC has a long way to go until it catches up with VRC.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by bellpride

What was most disappointing about the transition was the truly ungracious way in which FIRST pursued it. Tetrix was introduced not only with subtle "lies" like the ones mentioned before, but even through making fun of the VEX Robotics kit (in one blog post, it was even called a toy). I can't imagine how much this offends long-time FIRST-supporting IFI employees, like JVN, Jason Morella, Karthik, and countless others, along with teams which thought their hard work was viewed as real engineering.

Rereading those posts now it's really a lot more brutal than I imagined. "The new kit is a true robotics prototyping platform" and other cheap veiled shots like that. I was particularly upset with the apparent lack of communication with IFI that they were switching platforms, and that they decided to drop Vex before having a better alternate available (and they still don't). Oh well, I guess it got me into FRC ?

[Akash Rastogi]

In related news, our team did receive emails from unmentionable names in FIRST repeatedly questioning why we didn't register FTC teams this year. We felt that the explanation of cost benefit and the fact that the students did not want to use the Tetrix kit would be enough, yet we still feel a little bad about it. :/ Oh well.

[Abra Cadabra IV]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

What student's robotics experience has money as no object, though? My FTC experience was very much limited by money; if my FTC budget of $800 would have just gotten me the KoP for Tetrix, and I couldn't machine anything as I was out of money, I would have a much worse experience. If money is irrelavent, you'd be able to afford FRC and the point would be moot really.

Oddly enough, money was the deciding factor for us picking FTC... because Girl Scouts only sponsors us for FIRST.

Personally, I'm reserving judgment on the whole FTC vs VRC matter until I see how both progress in the next few years. That will make more difference to me than the technical specifications of either kit.

[gblake]

With a tip of the hat to John Godfrey Saxe and a wag of the finger to folks who might have a conscious or unconscious tendency to view this discussion as a competition instead of a coopetition; let me offer this:

"It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind
...
They conclude that the elephant is like a wall, snake, spear, tree, fan or rope, depending upon where they touch. They have a heated debate that does not come to physical violence. But in Saxe's version, the conflict is never resolved.
...
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!"

Maybe we aren't quite as divided as the six blind men of the story/poem; but I think we could do a better job of collaborating and of inspiring each other. I suggest that two successful programs serving a market that is a long, long way from saturated, is better than one.

Blake

PS: This material is an excerpt from this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

[Andrew Schuetze]

Originally Posted by gblake

I suggest that two successful programs serving a market that is a long, long way from saturated, is better than one.

Blake

Let's not lose sight of this true statement. There is a lot of room in this arena which is a larger issue. How best does one program or the other attack this program is a local and personal issue. VRC & FTC are not the only players in this market. BotBall and BEST come in on either end of these two in terms of cost. They each have pros and cons to their programs as well.

[NalaTI]

The primary reason this whole subject bugs me is that it always seems to be brought up by the VRC proponents who seem to want to prove that their kit-of-choice is the only viable option for intelligent people.

In reality, I'm not sure of the reason for arguing! I enjoy the FTC system, because it's what I know, and because it keeps my teams in the FIRST family, and the IFI teams enjoy theirs. Great! You won't see me starting a topic complaining about VEX teams. I defend the FTC product, but I know that BOTH systems have their limitations and their strengths.

That's why I've continually called this a Religious/Political argument. It is not a technical discussion, it is an unwinnable argument between different philosophies.

If you want to use VEX and you are promoting the (non-technical) values that FIRST focuses on, then great - you have my support and appreciation. If you use FTC but are just in it to win, with no recognition of the other FIRST values, then you don't get any positives from me.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by NalaTI

It is not a technical discussion, it is an unwinnable argument between different philosophies.

(Nala triggered the following comments, but is not the "you" in this post.)

This contains an especially important point. You cannot evaluate alternatives without establishing decision criteria, whether it is technical, educational, financial, or emotional, I believe you need to decide what is critical before you start. Every decision can only be made in the context of your own goals and needs.

So, comments such as "the 12V LEGO/Tetrix motors are more powerful" are factually true, but may be irrelevant to a particular team, as is "the VEX platform gives builders more design choices." If your team feels more powerful motors or more design choices are not relevant selection criteria, then they don't matter.

For lack of a better term, Exothermic Robotics is an evangelical organization. Our mission statement explicitly calls for us to let students of the appropriate age join our club, no matter where they go to school or how much money they have, and to then have those experienced students help start new teams in their schools or home-school groups. Knowing our mission statement, we can then evaluate a program based on our goals. Since we have grown from 5 to 18 to 40 to more than 60 students, we look for affordability, portability, ease of learning, and the quality of the educational experience. With OUR criteria in mind, we chose VEX, and -- ultimately -- I chose to make a major career change and seek a position with IFI. (I highly recommend that you find a way to get a job doing for money what you also do for fun.) I don't have the opinions I do because I work for IFI, I work for IFI because of my experiences as a customer. YOUR mileage will vary.

Anyway, know what's important to you and your school or club, and you will make the right decision. Evaluating choices, in engineering or any other area, without knowing your criteria is an exercise in building your house on the sand.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by NalaTI

The primary reason this whole subject bugs me is that it always seems to be brought up by the VRC proponents who seem to want to prove that their kit-of-choice is the only viable option for intelligent people.

So many (none of them productive) thoughts come to mind

Oh by the way - I wonder if Jon Thompson - the original poster in this thread - got any useful information from this discussion?

Blake
Tastes Great!
Less Filing!