[BB]: Beta Hardware

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

I disagree with that analogy. Using the basic code, you have all the capabilities you need without really knowing anything about programming. That is, you are welcome to not use the advanced capabilities of the system, no forcing is going on here. Other than some code downloads (necessary for IFI too) you are basically plug&play.

The difference being the new system is far from plug and play, and currently the software has shown some quirks.

[JDM]

I'd have to disagree with those who say it's running some Linux and not a LabVIEW app on top of something; the screenshot has what the default LabVIEW dashboard was last year on top, and at least the button controls on the bottom part look like LV components.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JDM

I'd have to disagree with those who say it's running some Linux and not a LabVIEW app on top of something; the screenshot has what the default LabVIEW dashboard was last year on top, and at least the button controls on the bottom part look like LV components.

The idea is that the LabVIEW app is running on top of an operating system.

[BLAQmx]

In fact, I hope that it's running Linux

Would a computer running Linux really be a better solution than one running XP? I base this purely on the experience level of most students and mentors participating in FIRST. Users will very likely be more familiar with XP and more adept at troubleshooting any possible issues on XP than than they would be even with the most common Linux distribution.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by BLAQmx

Would a computer running Linux really be a better solution than one running XP? I base this purely on the experience level of most students and mentors participating in FIRST. Users will very likely be more familiar with XP and more adept at troubleshooting any possible issues on XP than than they would be even with the most common Linux distribution.

The reason I was saying Linux would be better I outlined in my post (onsite licensing / legality of reimaging at events). As for interface / ease of use, Ubuntu is pretty simple to use... Regardless the Classmate's going to be running the Dashboard almost all of the time anyway.

We'll find out in a matter of days.

*insert quip at XP's reliability here*

[BLAQmx]

I cetainly hope no one has to reimage any laptop at an event due to software problems. At the few regionals I attended and the World Championship I didn't know of any team that had to do this. But this brings up a good question for everyone:

How often have you had to reinstall the Development tools, Drivers (NI-RIO, Ethernet, etc) or the whole OS on a laptop during the build season or at events during the 2009 season?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by BLAQmx

Users will very likely be more familiar with XP and more adept at troubleshooting any possible issues on XP than than they would be even with the most common Linux distribution.

Keep in mind that "any possible issues on XP" would include much greater exposure to malware. Some such issues defy troubleshooting to the point of requiring a total reinstall of the OS.

It also seems to be the case that Windows has much more complexity, with two seemingly identical computers displaying subtly different behavior. The Windows registry in particular is a repository of much mysteriousness.

I won't dismiss the power of enthusiastic computer users to bring chaos to any flavor of system, however.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by BLAQmx

I cetainly hope no one has to reimage any laptop at an event due to software problems. At the few regionals I attended and the World Championship I didn't know of any team that had to do this. But this brings up a good question for everyone:

How often have you had to reinstall the Development tools, Drivers (NI-RIO, Ethernet, etc) or the whole OS on a laptop during the build season or at events during the 2009 season?

Keep in mind this isn't the programming laptop (we don't know if you can write code on it or if it's just a Driver Station), but it's a Driver Station. DSes failed all the time last year, as I fondly remember running around with the "magic stick" at the 10,000 Lakes Regional.

[Mark McLeod]

Originally Posted by BLAQmx

I cetainly hope no one has to reimage any laptop at an event due to software problems. At the few regionals I attended and the World Championship I didn't know of any team that had to do this. But this brings up a good question for everyone:

How often have you had to reinstall the Development tools, Drivers (NI-RIO, Ethernet, etc) or the whole OS on a laptop during the build season or at events during the 2009 season?

I saw only one laptop OS rebuild (by a team) during the season as I recall, but that was necessary due to a virus infection. I heard some events had a problem with virus propagation via thumb drives used to install the WindRiver/LabVIEW updates (no first hand knowledge though).

The installation disks I carried with me saw quite a bit of use at Regionals (including one of the teams with us in NYC) and the Championship.
Most of those were due to original installation mistakes, such as, installing FRC updates over the wrong LabVIEW version. At the Championship, a team left their programming laptop at home by accident and had to install everything on another laptop.

The Classmate shouldn't get mishandled as much as a standard team laptop would normally be though. It "shouldn't" be used for casual web browsing and filled up with virus infected casual downloads. We'll just have to see how fast and furious software updates come during this season.

If Spare Parts carries a limited number of Classmates for emergency use, I think the danger will be minimized. Field crew can keep a couple hot at the Scorers table to keep matches moving.

[Abrakadabra]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Keep in mind this isn't the programming laptop (we don't know if you can write code on it or if it's just a Driver Station), but it's a Driver Station. DSes failed all the time last year, as I fondly remember running around with the "magic stick" at the 10,000 Lakes Regional.

Chris,
How many of those DS failures do you think were due to static discharge? There certainly weren't many other ways that the integrity of the firmware could have been compromised, seeing as how we couldn't really "program" the thing. (Bugs in the firmware due to random keypresses or program commands, etc., however, are another matter, and we can't rule those out altogether either...)

I think you are correct when you conjecture that we probably will not be able to write code on the DS. In fact, I personally would bet that FIRST will follow a software model similar to last year's: Linux as the base OS, with the DS software autostarting on boot. Customization of the UI could possibly be done via an XML file (or equivalent) that is loaded via a flash memory stick, or via a programming API like we had last year for the "second" LCD screen. No command line or windowing GUI would be accessible. In other words, there would be very tight control over what could be done with it.

I worked on a similar "instant on" clamshell device for a well-known smartphone maker that was (unfortunately) never released. It ran Linux as the base OS, and had a preset menu of applications (email, WP, browser, etc.) that came up on waking. The apps all had a GUI, with complete keyboard and mouse control available. Access to a Linux terminal screen for debugging was only available via a "secret" hot key, and even that was disabled for final manufacturing. New apps could be installed only via complete firmware updates, but limited configuration of those apps could be done either via XML or via special UI options built into the base apps themselves.

The point is that the integrity of the DS software needs to be protected at all costs, and that may mean that the 2010 DS will be much closer to an "appliance" than a "laptop". You would still need another computer for programming the robot via WindRiver and/or LabView.

But again, we shall see...

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by BLAQmx

Would a computer running Linux really be a better solution than one running XP? I base this purely on the experience level of most students and mentors participating in FIRST. Users will very likely be more familiar with XP and more adept at troubleshooting any possible issues on XP than than they would be even with the most common Linux distribution.

Linux is free, is orders of magnitude more secure than Windows, and can more easily be scaled to run extremely lightweight. It would be perfect for this task. Besides, within a year or two Windows XP will be dead.

Learning a new, non-Windows OS isn't that scary, especially if the only thing really necessary is the knowledge on how to create a dashboard app.

[emersont49]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

The difference being the new system is far from plug and play, and currently the software has shown some quirks.

I have been following this thread and felt compelled to add my opinion (Notepinion).

I was concerned that the 2009 control system would introduce so much new complexity and potential bugs that our team would suffer. Instead, the programming team jumped from 2 members to 10 members and our robot control was better than ever. I attribute this to several things:

1. We had excellant support for the new hardware. The web based videos and resouces from NI were very helpful. Team 16 (one of the beta testers) did a local seminar which helped a lot.
2. We standardized on Labview. This made it much less intimidating for the new programmers in the group. Again, the NI online material was excellant.
3. We had several laptops for development. Each was able to work independently on one aspect of the programming (PID contol steering, vision, autonomous).
4. There were continuous updates from FIRST, NI and on CD. When we encountered an ethernet port outtage on the DS, we knew what it was.

I'm excited to see all of the new capabilities teams will incorporate into their robots in coming years. I want to see robots that sense and react to the game itself. I feel this new control system is a big step towards achieving that.

We are engineers after all so I say "Bring on the technology"!

[ahecht]

Originally Posted by Abrakadabra

I worked on a similar "instant on" clamshell device for a well-known smartphone maker that was (unfortunately) never released. It ran Linux as the base OS, and had a preset menu of applications (email, WP, browser, etc.) that came up on waking. The apps all had a GUI, with complete keyboard and mouse control available. Access to a Linux terminal screen for debugging was only available via a "secret" hot key, and even that was disabled for final manufacturing. New apps could be installed only via complete firmware updates, but limited configuration of those apps could be done either via XML or via special UI options built into the base apps themselves.

That wouldn't be the Palm Foleo, would it?