[FTC]: FVC (Vex) VS. FTC (Tetrix)

[Akash Rastogi]

In related news, our team did receive emails from unmentionable names in FIRST repeatedly questioning why we didn't register FTC teams this year. We felt that the explanation of cost benefit and the fact that the students did not want to use the Tetrix kit would be enough, yet we still feel a little bad about it. :/ Oh well.

[Andrew Schuetze]

Originally Posted by gblake

I suggest that two successful programs serving a market that is a long, long way from saturated, is better than one.

Blake

Let's not lose sight of this true statement. There is a lot of room in this arena which is a larger issue. How best does one program or the other attack this program is a local and personal issue. VRC & FTC are not the only players in this market. BotBall and BEST come in on either end of these two in terms of cost. They each have pros and cons to their programs as well.

[NalaTI]

The primary reason this whole subject bugs me is that it always seems to be brought up by the VRC proponents who seem to want to prove that their kit-of-choice is the only viable option for intelligent people.

In reality, I'm not sure of the reason for arguing! I enjoy the FTC system, because it's what I know, and because it keeps my teams in the FIRST family, and the IFI teams enjoy theirs. Great! You won't see me starting a topic complaining about VEX teams. I defend the FTC product, but I know that BOTH systems have their limitations and their strengths.

That's why I've continually called this a Religious/Political argument. It is not a technical discussion, it is an unwinnable argument between different philosophies.

If you want to use VEX and you are promoting the (non-technical) values that FIRST focuses on, then great - you have my support and appreciation. If you use FTC but are just in it to win, with no recognition of the other FIRST values, then you don't get any positives from me.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by NalaTI

It is not a technical discussion, it is an unwinnable argument between different philosophies.

(Nala triggered the following comments, but is not the "you" in this post.)

This contains an especially important point. You cannot evaluate alternatives without establishing decision criteria, whether it is technical, educational, financial, or emotional, I believe you need to decide what is critical before you start. Every decision can only be made in the context of your own goals and needs.

So, comments such as "the 12V LEGO/Tetrix motors are more powerful" are factually true, but may be irrelevant to a particular team, as is "the VEX platform gives builders more design choices." If your team feels more powerful motors or more design choices are not relevant selection criteria, then they don't matter.

For lack of a better term, Exothermic Robotics is an evangelical organization. Our mission statement explicitly calls for us to let students of the appropriate age join our club, no matter where they go to school or how much money they have, and to then have those experienced students help start new teams in their schools or home-school groups. Knowing our mission statement, we can then evaluate a program based on our goals. Since we have grown from 5 to 18 to 40 to more than 60 students, we look for affordability, portability, ease of learning, and the quality of the educational experience. With OUR criteria in mind, we chose VEX, and -- ultimately -- I chose to make a major career change and seek a position with IFI. (I highly recommend that you find a way to get a job doing for money what you also do for fun.) I don't have the opinions I do because I work for IFI, I work for IFI because of my experiences as a customer. YOUR mileage will vary.

Anyway, know what's important to you and your school or club, and you will make the right decision. Evaluating choices, in engineering or any other area, without knowing your criteria is an exercise in building your house on the sand.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by NalaTI

The primary reason this whole subject bugs me is that it always seems to be brought up by the VRC proponents who seem to want to prove that their kit-of-choice is the only viable option for intelligent people.

So many (none of them productive) thoughts come to mind

Oh by the way - I wonder if Jon Thompson - the original poster in this thread - got any useful information from this discussion?

Blake
Tastes Great!
Less Filing!

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by NalaTI

The primary reason this whole subject bugs me is that it always seems to be brought up by the VRC proponents who seem to want to prove that their kit-of-choice is the only viable option for intelligent people.

I don't think anyone in this thread has been making ad hominem attacks about the "kind of people" that use various robotics platforms, as that's pretty ridiculous.

In reality, I'm not sure of the reason for arguing! I enjoy the FTC system, because it's what I know, and because it keeps my teams in the FIRST family, and the IFI teams enjoy theirs. Great! You won't see me starting a topic complaining about VEX teams. I defend the FTC product, but I know that BOTH systems have their limitations and their strengths.

Where has anyone been complaining about any kind of team? The thread's mainly consisted of people presenting pro / con arguments as they see them for robotics kits.

That's why I've continually called this a Religious/Political argument. It is not a technical discussion, it is an unwinnable argument between different philosophies.

There are aspects of this similar to religious / political, yes, but there are many actual, verifiable facts that can be talked about here too (e.g. the strength of metal components, strength of motors, control options for various platforms, etc). That's what I've been trying to stick to, at least. Just because people have differing opinions doesn't mean a topic is unworthy of discussion.

I've pretty much said everything I can about either system, so I don't think I'll post more, but it's not a bad discussion to have, if only because I wanna see JVN do a pullup

[jbbjjbt]

Originally Posted by gblake

So many (none of them productive) thoughts come to mind

Oh by the way - I wonder if Jon Thompson - the original poster in this thread - got any useful information from this discussion?

Blake
Tastes Great!
Less Filing!

I did get some useful information, especially about worlds. I also got some good entertainment. I've wanted to see the VEX channel with weights for a long time.

I think this is a good discussion that needs to take place. I hope it continues throughout the year.

I am personally on the fence. I love all the people in FTC but certain things drive me crazy. I spent way way too many hours trying to hook up Bluetooth. As a team we spent way too may hours building a robot and developing code just to be beaten by the Field Management System. Somehow busting gears and twisting axles was just more fun.

[NalaTI]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I don't think anyone in this thread has been making ad hominem attacks about the "kind of people" that use various robotics platforms, as that's pretty ridiculous.

Wasn't trying to say so, just when I look at the message that's coming across, I get the feeling that someone has an agenda that's anti FTC. That's the part that annoys me. I'm not anti-IFI, I am pro FTC. The two are not mutually exclusive, and yet in some cases that's what it feels like.

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Where has anyone been complaining about any kind of team? The thread's mainly consisted of people presenting pro / con arguments as they see them for robotics kits.

Sorry if it came across that I thought someone was specifically complaining about a team. It's not the case.

Originally Posted by Chris is me

There are aspects of this similar to religious / political, yes, but... <snip> Just because people have differing opinions doesn't mean a topic is unworthy of discussion.

I agree, it's worth discussing, and as I said, I appreciate the good and the bad in both systems.

Originally Posted by Chris is me

but it's not a bad discussion to have, if only because I wanna see JVN do a pullup

See? We agree on lots of stuff!

[lynca]

Originally Posted by jbbjjbt

I did get some useful information, especially about worlds. I also got some good entertainment. I've wanted to see the VEX channel with weights for a long time.

I think this is a good discussion that needs to take place. I hope it continues throughout the year.

I am personally on the fence. I love all the people in FTC but certain things drive me crazy. I spent way way too many hours trying to hook up Bluetooth. As a team we spent way too may hours building a robot and developing code just to be beaten by the Field Management System. Somehow busting gears and twisting axles was just more fun.

I am also getting useful information and interesting discussion about both programs. Regardless of politics, Pitsco and IFI will continue to compete and improve their VEX & TETRIX product line. This is much better than LEGO which has no competitors (FLL should be screaming for more corporate competition) !

I'll throw in my experiences with VEX. The people in VEX are amazing and the competition experience has undergone growing pains. The VEX Robotevents site has been somewhat difficult to register a team. However, in the last few months they have improved drastically ! The VEX clutches do eventually round out and plastic gears sometimes lose teeth (high strength gears should fix this problem).

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by jbbjjbt

I have a good idea of the cost difference but what about things like what the kids learn and how much fun they had?

This is the part of the question that I would like to learn more about. It would be nice to have more of the students from the VRC and FTC teams contribute to the discussion.

[BLAQmx]

Originally Posted by jbbjjbt

... certain things drive me crazy. I spent way way too many hours trying to hook up Bluetooth. As a team we spent way too may hours building a robot and developing code just to be beaten by the Field Management System.

Fixing these pain points has been one of the primary goals for the developers working on the FTC software and FMS for the 2010 season.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This is the part of the question that I would like to learn more about. It would be nice to have more of the students from the VRC and FTC teams contribute to the discussion.

Jane,

While more student feedback would be awesome, I think that getting a handle on the student perspective of fun/learning alone won't tell us what we really need to know due to the largest intangible of all ... the teachers/mentors involved.

The right adult leadership can make carrying a full refrigerator up a muddy mountainside a tremendously fun and enriched learning experience. I've been fortunate enough in my life to be around a few of these folks. So, the questions then become,

"What is the "energy/resource expense" for those adult leaders involved over time?"

"How long can the adult leaders involved sustain that effort?"

"How many students are inspired/positively touched each year through that effort?"

Like I've said in the past, it depends on what you want to achieve with your program and what experiences you have. If you're already deeply invested in equipment and training in Tetrix/NXT then you'd probably think about staying the course. If you're already deeply invested in equipment and training in VEX then you'd probably think about staying that course.

If you're running teams only and aren't looking for larger amounts of equipment to affect curriculum, then the FTC program seems like it might work well.

If you want to embed robotics in curriculum, VEX wins hands down right now. FTC currently lacks curriculum resources and affordable bulk purchasing options to put the hands-on experience in the classroom at an acceptable level IMHO. Even with FTC curriculum resources being developed at two wonderful places right now, without the ability to deploy affordable equipment to schools, such curriculum with go underutilized.

Couple that with the fact that you need a laptop/workstation for every FTC robot and management software to run multiple robots simultaneously and you have a confluence of hurdles that can stifle even the most energetic of teachers and classroom situations. COMPARE that to VEX in the classroom setting where up to 9 robots can be run simultaneously, right out of the box, without intensive programming, for a mild investment in two $50 crystal kits.

I'd love to stand here and tell you that the "FIRST program" is the best option of these two. Most of you have no idea how many sleepless nights I've spent thinking about what "might have been" and how often I've regretted not being able to get some folks to see a few things.

However, right now, if you're a BRAND NEW team looking at these two options, VEX is without a doubt your best investment. Right now, if you're a brand new school deciding between these two platforms to use in curriculum, VEX is the best choice by far - three purchasable curriculum options, gobs of free curriculum resources available over the web, an enriched Inventors Guide, etc.

In the end, we're all serving EXACTLY the same mission, so I begrudge no one's efforts in any direction at all. However, when anyone asks my opinion, I always talk about positively affecting the largest number of students possible and right now VEX is the better, more flexible, more affordable way to get it done on the "intermediate" scale. I love my FRC team, and FIRST's ideals, so to me the FRC/VEX combination in a school-based model is tough to beat pound-for-pound on learning, fun, and inspiration.

namaste

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by lynca

This is much better than LEGO which has no competitors.

http://rollingrobots.com/robotics-camp

[ttldomination]

Hahaha.

Well its obvious that no side is backing down...and luckily for us, our economic system is capitalist, which means that people will undoubtedly go for what they like the most, and we can argue and argue as to what is better, but it is ultimately people's experiences with the event that'll matter the most so...

I think I've seen this argument in this thread each year in the past, and in a similar manner, people eventually get a little on edge, and we loose focus of what's what. I personally will focus in what I've chosen, and will move on from this silly debate.

[Mike Soukup]

Originally Posted by BLAQmx

Fixing these pain points has been one of the primary goals for the developers working on the FTC software and FMS for the 2010 season.

So we can expect this season's FTC competitions to be smooth and relatively free of delays? The 2 hour delay at the beginning of the Chicago event, the 10+ minute match cycle, and the insistence by the FIRST staff (Ken & James) at the event that the field & controls problems were the teams' fault turned me off of FTC forever. FIRST replaced a solid product with a half-baked solution before it was ready and the teams suffered because of that decision.