[BB]: KOP info

[jamie_1930]

Originally Posted by DRAKE343

A second year team may be at the greatest disadvantage.

In my opinion a second year team should go and still get the rookie kit in order to better stock their inventory, the veteran package is for the benefit of "the veterans" who have seen the same wheel, servo, speed controller, ect. year after year and still have well stocked parts they could use.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

In my opinion a second year team should go and still get the rookie kit in order to better stock their inventory, the veteran package is for the benefit of "the veterans" who have seen the same wheel, servo, speed controller, ect. year after year and still have well stocked parts they could use.

The question is not whether a given team should get the extra inventory by way of the rookie kit, it is whether they can. If they are not allowed to, then the above is a moot point.

Personally, I think FIRST should have three kit options:
Rookie = Veteran + Control
Veteran = the standard hardware kit, minus the control system
Control = the control system

This way, anyone could opt to get an extra control system from one place, regardless of experience, instead of having to go around to 3-4 different vendors to piece it together or register as a rookie. But a veteran team without the money for another system can simply opt to do the Veteran kit, while one with enough to get three extra control systems could buy them (and hopefully give at least one of them to a nearby team who couldn't get an extra).

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Cory

It's not like this will really help. It will be good for one year, then you're SOL again, as you can only get one discounted cRIO. After that one year you're back to paying full price, and getting far, far less for your dollar than you did 2008 and prior.

Cory, you didn't really read my post, did you? The intent is that FIRST offers the kits. Rookie kits are the same as Veteran + Control, including pricewise. I didn't say anything about this ending after one year, either, or only being good for one control kit. You see what I'm saying?

[Chris is me]

It was my understanding that you could get a discounted cRIO from NI last year as well; if you did, you can get a new discounted cRIO this year. I believe this will continue.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to artdutra04 again."

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

It was my understanding that you could get a discounted cRIO from NI last year as well; if you did, you can get a new discounted cRIO this year. I believe this will continue.

My understanding is that you get one single discounted cRIO. -ever-. Not yearly. Maybe I misinterpreted that statement when it was released.

[edit]My bad. It is once yearly.

[Vikesrock]

Your team may be eligible for an additional once-per-year discount on your FIRST kit.

Call 1-866-511-6285 to check eligibility!

From this page:
http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/206678

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

In my opinion a second year team should go and still get the rookie kit in order to better stock their inventory, the veteran package is for the benefit of "the veterans" who have seen the same wheel, servo, speed controller, ect. year after year and still have well stocked parts they could use.

Keep in mind none of the super veteran teams get a second cRIO, the most expensive item in the kit, and other control system parts, so they're just as unwell stocked. Stuff like the compressor, etc. makes more sense though (I think my team hasn't used an onboard compressor yet...)

I figure this is better than them having to raise costs, which would get many of the same complaints without any opportunity for anyone who doesn't need all the parts to cut funding. So it might not be a savings, but it's still alright in my opinion.

Consider this: If your team didn't use an onboard compressor even one year in its history and you feel you need one now, that's most of the difference right there. With that and the battery charger, even if my team bought everything else removed from the KoP they'd still come up a few dollars short.

Note: Above based on the $1400 estimate; $2000+ is significantly more upsetting for me.

[yodameister]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

In my opinion a second year team should go and still get the rookie kit in order to better stock their inventory, the veteran package is for the benefit of "the veterans" who have seen the same wheel, servo, speed controller, ect. year after year and still have well stocked parts they could use.

This is the route we are most likely going to take. We need the chargers, Jags (yuk!), the battery, and the extra goodies that we haven't been able to stockpile. We also understand the need for the extra cRio to get the programmers up to speed ASAP.

[sanddrag]

Interesting to see the Victors still on the list, but WOW we are getting shorted a lot more than I thought. No charger, only one battery, only two jaguar speed controls. Seems all hopes of restoring/preserving old robots are really out the window now. Oh well, maybe there will be some new and exciting stuff in the kit.

[Mark McLeod]

Some of this makes me wonder what Eric's been up to, because it hints at what is different in the 2010 electronics.

I'm not complaining, but I find it odd that lacking a new cRIO, veteran's still receive (1) Analog Bumper. I assume that means the design has been changed?

Obviously, we're receiving other critical parts of the electrical system (Power Distribution Panel - LEDs added back on maybe?), and the Digital Sidecar (what's new here?).

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

Some of this makes me wonder what Eric's been up to, because it hints at what is different in the 2010 electronics.

I've been up to my day job so Dean doesn't fire me

I know my opinion doesn't count in this thread because I am sometimes considered to be on the wrong side of the fence. Therefore, I won't offer it.

However, I will offer my mom's opinion. She is a high school chem teacher that coaches a 2 year team (last year was their rookie season). They don't have much of a budget, and the economy reduced it further. The price break was very important to their ability to compete again this year. Her response "Costs increased, but they made parts optional. Great, I didn't want to buy them anyway."

[sanddrag]

I will agree that the reduction in registration fee makes the initial fund raising hurdle much more achievable for many teams. A lot of teams don't try to compete well, they just try to compete period. They will scavenge and re-use whatever they have an not buy a single piece more. This change benefits them.

Another way to look at this change is that it's somewhat of a payment deferment plan. Instead of having to pay $6000 to FIRST by the beginning of December, you can afford to be a little slower about your fund raising efforts, and take another month or so to get the extra thousand (to buy the things that didn't come with it).

It's not all bad.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Another way to look at this change is that it's somewhat of a payment deferment plan. Instead of having to pay $6000 to FIRST by the beginning of December, you can afford to be a little slower about your fund raising efforts, and take another month or so to get the extra thousand (to buy the things that didn't come with it).

It's not all bad.

Except that sometimes money for registrations and money for robot parts can come from two different sources and aren't necessarily interchangable.

[GaryVoshol]

So does this mean we will have less arguments about what parts can be legally reused from year to year, components vs COTS? Or more? Remember the battery cable floo-fla last year?

[Foster]

I'm trying to leave a comment on Bill's Blog that is more substantive than, "you lie," but that's pretty well how I feel about how this "price reduction" has been handled.

Well it's not a "lie", it's more like "spin". The problem with spin is that 90+% of us are engineers and at some point we turn the spin off and look at the facts. I've seen the FIRST Spin Machine (tm) in action over the FTC change, with the "better, faster, stronger, real robot parts".

And we are seeing the FIRST Spin Machine again. They would have been much better off saying: "Hey, FRC is expensive, we know that and we have an idea:

• Rookie teams get all the KoP parts for their entry fee
• Veteran Teams can get a reduced KoP at a reduced price and buy extra stuff they need (which may save them money)
• Or Veteran Teams can get the full kit for an extra $1500

and to help out the Rookie teams in these tough times Dean is going to cough up $1500 for each rookie team to help them out."

At which point the entire discussion is how smart FIRST is and how cool Dean is and this is why we do FRC.

Instead of the discussion we are now having.

Spin, spin, spin, good for drive trains, not so much for people.