[BB]: KOP info

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

In my opinion a second year team should go and still get the rookie kit in order to better stock their inventory, the veteran package is for the benefit of "the veterans" who have seen the same wheel, servo, speed controller, ect. year after year and still have well stocked parts they could use.

Keep in mind none of the super veteran teams get a second cRIO, the most expensive item in the kit, and other control system parts, so they're just as unwell stocked. Stuff like the compressor, etc. makes more sense though (I think my team hasn't used an onboard compressor yet...)

I figure this is better than them having to raise costs, which would get many of the same complaints without any opportunity for anyone who doesn't need all the parts to cut funding. So it might not be a savings, but it's still alright in my opinion.

Consider this: If your team didn't use an onboard compressor even one year in its history and you feel you need one now, that's most of the difference right there. With that and the battery charger, even if my team bought everything else removed from the KoP they'd still come up a few dollars short.

Note: Above based on the $1400 estimate; $2000+ is significantly more upsetting for me.

[yodameister]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

In my opinion a second year team should go and still get the rookie kit in order to better stock their inventory, the veteran package is for the benefit of "the veterans" who have seen the same wheel, servo, speed controller, ect. year after year and still have well stocked parts they could use.

This is the route we are most likely going to take. We need the chargers, Jags (yuk!), the battery, and the extra goodies that we haven't been able to stockpile. We also understand the need for the extra cRio to get the programmers up to speed ASAP.

[sanddrag]

Interesting to see the Victors still on the list, but WOW we are getting shorted a lot more than I thought. No charger, only one battery, only two jaguar speed controls. Seems all hopes of restoring/preserving old robots are really out the window now. Oh well, maybe there will be some new and exciting stuff in the kit.

[Madison]

I'm trying to leave a comment on Bill's Blog that is more substantive than, "you lie," but that's pretty well how I feel about how this "price reduction" has been handled.

FIRST really ought to own up to and explain the increased costs and challenges of operating in an economy that very nearly imploded or hire a better public relations person. They've done a poor job of making these changes seem like they're a good thing.

Is there anyone around here that can speak to how these changes will make the 2010 season significantly better for their team or region? I'm sure many, if not all, of the teams that are going to shell out the extra $2000 required for all of these omitted parts would HAPPILY pay an extra $1000 for registration and give the remaining $1000 to a team in need.

[Mark McLeod]

Some of this makes me wonder what Eric's been up to, because it hints at what is different in the 2010 electronics.

I'm not complaining, but I find it odd that lacking a new cRIO, veteran's still receive (1) Analog Bumper. I assume that means the design has been changed?

Obviously, we're receiving other critical parts of the electrical system (Power Distribution Panel - LEDs added back on maybe?), and the Digital Sidecar (what's new here?).

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

You didn't care about the two 20 cent standoffs?

I was cutting people some slack as to not make the tally even worse.

P.S.
Remember too that plastic pneumatic fittings were not included in the KOP last year which I think makes it much harder on the rookies to even try pneumatics.

Don't forget about the SMC solenoid valves. Can you even buy such things online? SMC doesn't have an online store. You'd have to contact an SMC rep, right?

If you wanted to do a full accounting I noticed that there will be some additional costs for parts not mentioned, but that obviously won't be included in the kit either. Such as the pressure relief valve ($27.20) and the cRIO power connectors (not included BTW in our team's cRIO order).

These aren't supplied to ANY teams, correct? So they wouldn't belong on a additional veteran cost tally.

As January approaches, I hope FIRST will compile and release a complete document listing full manufacturer part numbers and ordering sources for all control system items not included in the veteran KOP. I think they can and will do better than the document they just released. It would be great if they also threw in information on all the pneumatic components that were left out of last year's kit.

Not being one to wait around for that to drop out of the sky, I've got a lot of links documented at http://controlsystem.neofra.com/2009...l-system-parts. This is where I went to compile much of the pricing I included in the spreadsheet I posted earlier. I'll do my best to refresh and add to the information on this site as I receive updates.

If anyone has any ordering sources for pneumatic items such as those Mark mentioned, or any other "important" electrical or pneumatic items that aren't included in the veteran kit (or at all), please PM me with information, and I will update the website.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I agree it's been sold to teams inaccurately (it's not a price reduction), but if it saves money for some teams (i.e. if you don't need a compressor this year or don't ever demo your robot and can reuse the cRIO), then how is it a bad thing?

In short, that's how it can help teams.

The issue isnt that it isn't a price reduction for SOME people. The issue is that it is being sold as a wonderful thing for all teams when in reality it is only beneficial for a subset of teams. While this is a good thing for those teams it is a pain for teams that arent benefited by it. Additionally it allows FIRST to come out and say, "See look, we are saving you money, we are such great guys" Which is an incorrect statement and implies things that arent true, some of us have major issues with incorrect implications.

EDIT: Also, I suppose some people might be peeved that they arent saving money too.

[JaneYoung]

As January approaches, I hope FIRST will compile and release a complete document listing full manufacturer part numbers and ordering sources for all control system items not included in the veteran KOP. I think they can and will do better than the document they just released. It would be great if they also threw in information on all the pneumatic components that were left out of last year's kit.

This sounds like a concern that should be addressed directly to FIRST, Travis. It's valid.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I agree it's been sold to teams inaccurately (it's not a price reduction), but if it saves money for some teams (i.e. if you don't need a compressor this year or don't ever demo your robot and can reuse the cRIO), then how is it a bad thing?

In short, that's how it can help teams.

That's why I'm curious to see how many teams this really affects. At first glance, this appears to penalize a great majority of teams -- in terms of cost or function -- for the benefit of comparably few. Maybe that's not true.

If 100 teams would have dropped out in 2010 were it not for the reduced registration fee and 101+ teams spend an extra $2000 to maintain their status quo, there's money wasted. Again, I can't speak for everyone, but my team would be happier giving $1000 to any other FIRST team than to a for-profit business.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Madison

I'm trying to leave a comment on Bill's Blog that is more substantive than, "you lie," but that's pretty well how I feel about how this "price reduction" has been handled.

FIRST really ought to own up to and explain the increased costs and challenges of operating in an economy that very nearly imploded or hire a better public relations person. They've done a poor job of making these changes seem like they're a good thing.

Is there anyone around here that can speak to how these changes will make the 2010 season significantly better for their team or region? I'm sure many, if not all, of the teams that are going to shell out the extra $2000 required for all of these omitted parts would HAPPILY pay an extra $1000 for registration and give the remaining $1000 to a team in need.

I hate to use the word "lie" but the spin from FIRST might make us all very dizzy.

I understand cutting out something like the compressor (we have 8 and many teams never use them.) I understand (but don't like) not including a second cRio for veteran teams.

Cutting back on things like batteries and speed controllers is just wrong. These things are more like consumables that permanent control parts. How many of you are going to trust old batteries? How many of you have blown up speed controllers?

Don't make things more expensive for me and then tell me you cut my costs. That sounds way to much like congress.

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

Some of this makes me wonder what Eric's been up to, because it hints at what is different in the 2010 electronics.

I've been up to my day job so Dean doesn't fire me

I know my opinion doesn't count in this thread because I am sometimes considered to be on the wrong side of the fence. Therefore, I won't offer it.

However, I will offer my mom's opinion. She is a high school chem teacher that coaches a 2 year team (last year was their rookie season). They don't have much of a budget, and the economy reduced it further. The price break was very important to their ability to compete again this year. Her response "Costs increased, but they made parts optional. Great, I didn't want to buy them anyway."

[sanddrag]

I will agree that the reduction in registration fee makes the initial fund raising hurdle much more achievable for many teams. A lot of teams don't try to compete well, they just try to compete period. They will scavenge and re-use whatever they have an not buy a single piece more. This change benefits them.

Another way to look at this change is that it's somewhat of a payment deferment plan. Instead of having to pay $6000 to FIRST by the beginning of December, you can afford to be a little slower about your fund raising efforts, and take another month or so to get the extra thousand (to buy the things that didn't come with it).

It's not all bad.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Another way to look at this change is that it's somewhat of a payment deferment plan. Instead of having to pay $6000 to FIRST by the beginning of December, you can afford to be a little slower about your fund raising efforts, and take another month or so to get the extra thousand (to buy the things that didn't come with it).

It's not all bad.

Except that sometimes money for registrations and money for robot parts can come from two different sources and aren't necessarily interchangable.

[GaryVoshol]

So does this mean we will have less arguments about what parts can be legally reused from year to year, components vs COTS? Or more? Remember the battery cable floo-fla last year?

[Foster]

I'm trying to leave a comment on Bill's Blog that is more substantive than, "you lie," but that's pretty well how I feel about how this "price reduction" has been handled.

Well it's not a "lie", it's more like "spin". The problem with spin is that 90+% of us are engineers and at some point we turn the spin off and look at the facts. I've seen the FIRST Spin Machine (tm) in action over the FTC change, with the "better, faster, stronger, real robot parts".

And we are seeing the FIRST Spin Machine again. They would have been much better off saying: "Hey, FRC is expensive, we know that and we have an idea:

• Rookie teams get all the KoP parts for their entry fee
• Veteran Teams can get a reduced KoP at a reduced price and buy extra stuff they need (which may save them money)
• Or Veteran Teams can get the full kit for an extra $1500

and to help out the Rookie teams in these tough times Dean is going to cough up $1500 for each rookie team to help them out."

At which point the entire discussion is how smart FIRST is and how cool Dean is and this is why we do FRC.

Instead of the discussion we are now having.

Spin, spin, spin, good for drive trains, not so much for people.