[BB]: KOP info

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Madison

I'm trying to leave a comment on Bill's Blog that is more substantive than, "you lie," but that's pretty well how I feel about how this "price reduction" has been handled.

I'm wondering if they're going to go ahead and play 'stupid' and assume veteran teams can't do simple math.

I'm pretty disappointed to see a lot of the stuff we won't be getting. Even the Axis camera..? (I'm gonna go ahead and assume we can use other types of USB cameras though)

No Victors..?'

1 battery..? (Not to mention a huge pile of batteries from the 08 season were from a bad batch that we had to throw out with leaking cells)

No compressor..? (Hoping we can just buy a 10 dollar one from HF)

Thanks FIRST, you're the best. (Reminisces about the trusty old IFI days)

[Mark McLeod]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

These aren't supplied to ANY teams, correct? So they wouldn't belong on a additional veteran cost tally.

The two items I mentioned (the pressure relief valve ($27.20) and the cRIO power connectors) will be in the rookie KOP, but not in the veterans the way I read between the lines, because they are only used on devices that veterans won't be getting but rookies will.

The SMC solenoids can be ordered online, but probably have to be from a product catalog to get the specifics we need, mostly because of the 12v coils, rather than the more common 24v coils. That might mean a phone order from an on-line distributor.
E.g., we can order 12v SMC solenoids from a catalog--example: SMC Pneumatic Solenoid
2008's double solenoid was a: SY3240-6H-S (This translates to SY3000 series, 2-position single action, base mounting, 12VDC, L-type plug connector, surge suppressor)
The single-action solenoid was a: SY3140-6H-S
Each SMC solenoid also requires a base: SY3000-27-1T

[Marc P.]

I may be mistaken, but going back prior to the 2000 season, wasn't the control system essentially "loaned" to teams, to be returned to FIRST at the end of competition season? E.g. teams would put a deposit down, use the controls for competition, then return them for a refund of the deposit. I believe there was an option to purchase the controls, but it was a few thousand dollars, and my old team couldn't afford to keep them in 1998 or 1999.

I know after 2000 the controls were included in the kit for keeps, as I still have the robot complete with controls, and they have been standard each year since. Granted, times have changed, and many teams like to maintain older robots for demos, shows, off-season competitions, etc, but I've always considered a new control system each year to be a luxury, not a necessity.

By making the kit more modular, it will ultimately lower the veteran entry price in the long term. From a practical standpoint, how many teams would actively use more than 2 or 3 control combos at any given time? One would go into the current competition robot, a second or third may go into a practice and/or demo robot. If a team purchases an additional control system for this coming season, and needs no more than 2 functional systems, the additional cost this season would be offset by the savings in subsequent seasonal registration fees, where they would otherwise be "forced" to purchase unnecessary hardware.

While I certainly hear the argument that the value of the missing hardware isn't properly represented by the cost savings, the idea of modularizing the kit is a step in the right direction for long term cost savings.

[AdamHeard]

Many teams take pride in keeping all of their robots functioning, and for many years FIRST's methods allowed this with no hassle.

No way to cut it, the combination of decisions made has been stupid, and it upsets me. The fact that the spin they put on these statements is so intense makes it even more upsetting.

Yeah, I "should look on the brightside", but I'd also like to point out how stupid this really is.

[jessjank.]

(I've been keeping away from CD for the past year due to the pressures of graduate school applications/interviews/start of grad school as well as trying to keep the Pittsburgh teams and regional running last year, but I figured I can maybe add something to this discussion)

I can't vouch for this year specifically, but I know that in the past, many of the parts that have been distributed in the KOP came from donations from various companies or were purchased by FIRST at a cost that was discounted by the particular vendor. In these cases, FIRST has often been limited to the quantity of each part they have access to to provide to teams via constraints from those companies. Considering that the value of the KOP has often times vastly outweighs the actual registration costs (you get access to one competition along with the KOP through registration, too) FIRST teams usually end up with a pretty decent deal. Pricey, yes, but a good deal. One should perhaps consider that in this economic climate, many vendors and companies are likely decreasing their ability to contribute parts or discounts to FIRST to place in the KOP and FIRST itself doesn't necessarily have the funds to acquire these parts for the teams. So, in order to cut back costs, doesn't it seem slightly reasonable to ask teams that already have these parts to utilize the old parts instead of supplying them with new ones? Not all teams need to get new or replacement parts - reusing and recycling are fantastic things too! For those who need particular parts (but likely not all) you will be able to selectively purchase what you truly need without dishing out extra funds that can be used for other necessities. While I can understand everyone's gripes and frustration towards the situation, I think we also need to look at the other side of this too...

[Tom Line]

I heartily agree: FIRST needs to stop the spin. Especially in situations like this where the cold hard evidence is going to be right in front of the person who has to spend 10 times what a component is worth in shipping just to get it.

Unlike many, I think the tiered pricing can be a good thing: as long as FIRST allows people to choose what kit they want. They do listen to posts here on occasion, so a loud-and-clear "Let us choose the kit we want" should do it.

Finally, I don't think we should do an apples-to-apples comparison between last years Kit of parts and this year. An intel classmate PC costs between $450 and $500. Replacing the driver station last year cost $162. That's a roughly $300 swing in cost by itself. We don't yet know what the other components cost - the driver station breakout board is likely to cost around $30-40 as well. So even the upper limit of $2100 difference I've seen thrown around may be mitigated to some degree by the cost of the new components we'll be getting.

[EricH]

FYI, the rest of the post has arrived. Same place.

[artdutra04]

Here at FIRST airlines, we would like to generously thank you for choosing to fly with us today with our new, lower priced flights!

We are sorry to announce that due to space limitations, all carry on luggage must be checked for the low price of $50 per bag.

Unfortunately, space is crowded on this flight so we genuinely hope you enjoy eating your knees for lunch.

Speaking of snacks, the current recession has put us in a bind, but we would still like to thank you for your $5000 ticket by offering you six ounces of juice, soda, or water and ten Goldfish crackers.



Additional snacks and beverages can be purchased throughout this eight hour flight for the now lowered price of $20 per drink, and $1 per Goldfish cracker.

For your entertainment throughout the flight, Wifi can be purchased for $1 per second.

And unfortunately, due to both overbooked airspace around this airport and lack of viable alternative high-speed transportation, the captain is estimating we are going to spend three hours taxiing on the tarmac before we takeoff.

Last, but not least, in the highly unlikely situation that we were unable to purchase enough fuel to make it through the entire flight, there are parachutes located underneath every seat. In case of an emergency, please make sure your own parachute is fastened before kindly assisting others.

Thank you, please enjoy your flight, and have a wonderful day!

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Cory

It's not like this will really help. It will be good for one year, then you're SOL again, as you can only get one discounted cRIO. After that one year you're back to paying full price, and getting far, far less for your dollar than you did 2008 and prior.

Cory, you didn't really read my post, did you? The intent is that FIRST offers the kits. Rookie kits are the same as Veteran + Control, including pricewise. I didn't say anything about this ending after one year, either, or only being good for one control kit. You see what I'm saying?

[Chris is me]

It was my understanding that you could get a discounted cRIO from NI last year as well; if you did, you can get a new discounted cRIO this year. I believe this will continue.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to artdutra04 again."

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

It was my understanding that you could get a discounted cRIO from NI last year as well; if you did, you can get a new discounted cRIO this year. I believe this will continue.

My understanding is that you get one single discounted cRIO. -ever-. Not yearly. Maybe I misinterpreted that statement when it was released.

[edit]My bad. It is once yearly.

[Vikesrock]

Your team may be eligible for an additional once-per-year discount on your FIRST kit.

Call 1-866-511-6285 to check eligibility!

From this page:
http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/206678

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Foster

The problem with spin is that 90+% of us are engineers and at some point we turn the spin off and look at the facts.

Do we have that high a percentage of engineers involved in FRC? Wow.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Finally, I don't think we should do an apples-to-apples comparison between last years Kit of parts and this year. An intel classmate PC costs between $450 and $500. Replacing the driver station last year cost $162. That's a roughly $300 swing in cost by itself. We don't yet know what the other components cost - the driver station breakout board is likely to cost around $30-40 as well. So even the upper limit of $2100 difference I've seen thrown around may be mitigated to some degree by the cost of the new components we'll be getting.

The cost of the driver station and wireless router were NOT included in the $2100 calculation, due to the anticipated replacement with the Classmate PC and related "stuff".

[Dale]

Given the mountains of components we have gotten over the years in our KOP but never used, if FIRST needs to save money in a big way I'd rather the KOP just included donated items and a link to a well-documented website with items to buy separately. AndyMark would run such a thing, I'll bet. That would make sense to teams, of course, only if the registration fee dropped a lot more.

Since rookies wouldn't know what to order to get started, there would need to be a starter kit with a kit frame, motors, transmissions, etc. that would be enough to build a box on wheels. Perhaps there could be another kit available with a grab bag of interesting parts, like the current KOP, available for teams who want to buy one.

Personally, and for the sake of the planet, I'd rather just pay for what we need if the result was a much lower registration fee.