Need for Inspections Rules Changes

[johnr]

I know Michigan had this http://www.firstinmichigan.org/filem...%20Rev%20D.pdf but i don't know what happened once the teams got to the districts. Perhaps someone could expand on this?

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by Andy Brockway

The one problem with all suggestions for a volunteer from each team is for the teams that have few mentors.

I actively recruit mentors but at this time I have only two plus me. I am the only one that could act as the Volunteer Inspector and perform the job such that the complaints that many have about inspectors will not reflect on my team.

But how do I do this and run my team. My students expect that we compete. I would love to help with inspections, I have helped several rookie and veteran teams both before ship and at Regionals, but time is short on Thursdays.

Exactly, at my team's regional on Thursday, we had two mentors. One of the mentors would not have had enough technical experience to be able to help inspect. So, I was the only one regularly in the pits. It would seem rather difficult for a team to lose 100% of their technical mentors for the day.

[Bob Steele]

i think that something our team will initiate this year is a complete pre-inspection at our pre-ship event. We will build a sizing box and we already have a scale. We tried to do this last year and caught several problems from many of the rookie and veteran teams.... and helped them correct them. It was actually a lot of fun working with them...
Some teams (veteran ones..) balked at the inspection findings... so we just let them find out for themselves... the service was totally voluntary...

Some type of pre-ship inspection service should be offered by veteran teams in their areas. We plan on taking ours "on the road" and using inspectors from our team and other teams that these same teams will be seeing at our local regional. Besides being good for teams.... this could also enhance the ability for an inspection team to come together before Thursday at the event.

I think the "burden" in helping these rookie teams should be shouldered by the veteran teams...it is imperative this year that teams get to the events pretty much "ready to play".

We can help this by being in more contact with rookie and teams with less resources than we have.

I hope many veteran teams will take up this challenge....


Good luck to everyone and thank everyone for their comments regarding my initial comments and proposals....
keep them coming...

GO FIRST

[gburlison]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

But the elephant in the room is really the issue of certain rules that take far too much effort to comply with and enforce, proportional to their actual value. These often greatly lengthen the inspection process, and are directly responsible for the occasional acrimonious discussion that takes place between inspectors and team members (usually mentors).

Since the pneumatics were vastly improved for 2009 (no brand and quantity limits), bumpers are the biggest sticking point. In retrospect, the bumper rule did improve from 2008 to 2009, but suffered during the season from a series of interpretations in the Q&A and updates that introduced new issues and didn't quite account for some difficult cases in a clear and uncontradictory way.

I agree that part of the problem is the rules. In my 9 years as a mentor, I have seen many robots that I thought would not pass inspection, only to find out later that my interpretation of the rules was not entirely correct. How can I act as an unofficial inspector for the team next to me in the pits if I am unsure of the rules myself?

On another note, at the regional we attended last year, there just was not enough room set aside for the inspectors. The scale and sizing box were too close together making it difficult to move from the scale to the box without getting in the way of each other. The robots lined up at the scale and the size box often stretched down the aisle making it almost impossible to get to the nearby pits.

[Mike Betts]

Bob,

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

...The Mini Inspection or PRE-Inspection is primarily a size and weight inspection with a cursory look at a robot safety only...

Most regionals already do this. Last year, our MINI inspection consisted of the software verification followed by a quick safety inspection (battery secure, 120A CB and PRV (if necessary)).

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

...On Thursday afternoon, any robot that completes the MINI inspection would be able to compete with the caveat that they MUST complete the FULL inspection to be eligible for FRIDAY Qualifications...

This invites abuse. Some teams could have (intentionally or not) a competitive advantage in their Thursday matches.

More importantly, many teams would intentionally delay starting their inspections until Thursday matches have concluded. Why? Because they would run the risk of being prevented from competing if a problem is found.

At issue here is that "most" rules have a basis in safety or in competitive advantage. We inspectors would now have a greater chance of being the "bad guys". Do we allow a known non-complying team to compete while their fellow teams continue just because they have not started inspection?

I hope you see the potential problems...

I really think that all teams must pass inspection before starting qualifying rounds if the field is to be level.

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

...At a team's 2nd regional... they would only be required to do the MINI inspection....unless, of course they had substantially altered their robot in their opinion...

I like this suggestion...

I see no difference between this and the "honor" system we have now that any changes made after inspection is completed (Friday and Saturday) is brought to the inspector's attention and the change is re-inspected.

Like the Saturday re-inspection, I would add size, weight and a spot check or two to the MINI (for these teams) and let 'em go...

Regards,

Mike

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Here are a few 'statistics' that seem to be normal for all regionals and even the Champs...
If you see a team before 10 o'clock in the inspection area, they have never weighed or sized the robot or they don't know where the practice cue is.
Some teams will start to inspect after their second practice and either just before or just after lunch, starting about 11.
Business picks up by 3PM and hits a peak by 4-5 o'clock.
LRIs start visiting teams in the pit by 4 if they are following the recommended practice.
By 6 o'clock, LRIs are instructed to start visiting the teams with a "mad mom face" and most of the stragglers will start to come in.
It is way out of the ordinary for a team to not inspect on Thursday except for those that choose to go home early or come in late.
By Friday morning, the majority of teams without a sticker are bringing in the BOM or signing the inspection sheet.
An LRI takes it personally if all teams do not have a sticker by opening ceremonies.
There is always at least one veteran team who waits until the last minute to inspect.
There is always several teams who will completely tear down their robot on Thursday for any of a variety of reasons especially if it is their first regional.
Rookies are not the only late comers nor are they always the greater number of the problem teams.
There are some regionals each year that will report that a number of teams are not inspected or even started by Friday morning. (Not always the same regional)
Inspections are complicated by changes in the KOP particularly the control system, issues arising from field control, and volunteers doing double duty, i.e. judges and refs inspecting on Thursday.
Average inspection times run 20 minutes or less. Consistent 45 minute or longer inspections indicate an issue with the inspection team.
Partial inspections take longer overall than a full, one visit, inspection. A request for a partial indicates the team is not ready to be inspected.
The rule that allowed more practice matches for teams already inspected brought experienced teams in earlier for inspection, at some regionals.
There are some teams that refuse help no matter how much you try. It takes a strong and forceful LRI to take matters in hand and layout a step by step approach to compliance.
Teams will continue to modify and build throughout the weekend and won't think about reinspection. Inspection areas near the cue make things easier to see by those manning the inspection area on Friday and Saturday.

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Partial inspections take longer overall than a full, one visit, inspection. A request for a partial indicates the team is not ready to be inspected.

I defer to your wisdom and experience on this.

Partial inspections have been done at every regional I've been to (especially with sizing and weight), but perhaps this needs to be clarified and changed this year.