Need for Inspections Rules Changes

[Bob Steele]

i think that something our team will initiate this year is a complete pre-inspection at our pre-ship event. We will build a sizing box and we already have a scale. We tried to do this last year and caught several problems from many of the rookie and veteran teams.... and helped them correct them. It was actually a lot of fun working with them...
Some teams (veteran ones..) balked at the inspection findings... so we just let them find out for themselves... the service was totally voluntary...

Some type of pre-ship inspection service should be offered by veteran teams in their areas. We plan on taking ours "on the road" and using inspectors from our team and other teams that these same teams will be seeing at our local regional. Besides being good for teams.... this could also enhance the ability for an inspection team to come together before Thursday at the event.

I think the "burden" in helping these rookie teams should be shouldered by the veteran teams...it is imperative this year that teams get to the events pretty much "ready to play".

We can help this by being in more contact with rookie and teams with less resources than we have.

I hope many veteran teams will take up this challenge....


Good luck to everyone and thank everyone for their comments regarding my initial comments and proposals....
keep them coming...

GO FIRST

[Jon236]

Excellent idea......if Mike Betts is reading this, maybe we could do this in CT? The Ticks would be glad to help!

[dtengineering]

It might not hurt to require teams to post submit photos of their robots in advance of the event. Close ups of the motor, control board, bumpers, wheels, etc.

They could be submitted directly to FIRST, and kept confidential amongst event inspectors, or they could be posted publicly. I know that several teams who posted photos or plans on CD last year got a lot of helpful advice on issues that might present tech inspection problems and were able to make changes.

In any case, this way inspectors could figure out which teams are going to need the most attention and support in advance of the event. They could even e-mail the team for clarification and the team... if needed... could manufacture up to 40 lbs of replacements (if the witholding limit is still in place this year.)

In fact the photos could be required by the Friday before ship... putting a deadline in place that might help teams plan to finish up before ship date.

But probably the #1 way to speed things up would be to include a spring scale in the KoP, so that teams can hang their robot from the rafters and get a pretty good idea of what it weighs before it is boxed or bagged.

But the number one, most important, thing to make this work is to try to integrate teams into the FIRST community so that they can get help with ideas and issues early in the build period. I know we've been trying to do that for years, and it's really hard with remote teams, but we might just have to try even harder this year.


Jason

[Mike Martus]

As the Lead Inspector for Michigan I found the training in Manchester very needed. Contained within this thread are many very good Ideas. What is of supreme importance is this:

.... Well trained set of inspectors
.... appropriate tools to do the job (we had many templates to measure bumpers)
.... a REQUIREMENT for all teams to do a PRE_Inspection prior to shipping the robot... teams that did not have pre-inspection done were delayed in the inspection process
.... A strong emphasis upon meeting the set time constraints of inspections

Whatever changes come about, the main objective(s) of the inspection MUST be kept to the highest standards......
SAFETY is always highest
Meeting standards set by FIRST
Insuring that all teams can compete in a fair event following ALL rules as applied by the GDC

Typically in a 3 day event teams waste the morning and few inspections get done. In a shortened event (Like MI Events) the sense of urgency sparks the teams to get it done... like NOW!

Our inspectors were busy but in most cases were able to meet the objective of ALL Robots ready and inspected prior to the first match. Thanks to great teams and great inspectors we in Michigan were able to rise to the task and get the job done with a strong level of quality.

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by Jon236

Excellent idea......if Mike Betts is reading this, maybe we could do this in CT? The Ticks would be glad to help!

Jon,

I have attended the Suffield Shakedown (Connecticut's pre-ship scrimmage hosted by Team 176) every year and, in my capacity as Lead Inspector, always do my best to visit each and every team to offer my services.

The two big issues are that (1) most rookie teams do not fully realize the importance of attending the scrimmage and (2) only about 50% of the CT Regional's teams are in attendance.

I rather doubt that either of these issues will change much in the future but keep them ideas a-comin'.

Regards,

Mike

Postscript:

I had even planned to expand my efforts last year and had reserved a classroom for training of robot inspectors on the new control system. This initiative was canceled when it became evident that only 5 of 12 robot inspectors had signed up in VIMS at the time of the scrimmage. - M.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I have found that if the first event is not the next week, most rookies will forget the changes we tell them need to be made. One of our biggest problems is remembering that rookies do not know what we are talking about most of the time. It takes a while for them to pick up the experience. We must remember our audience when speaking about technical issues and rules.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

One of our biggest problems is remembering that rookies do not know what we are talking about most of the time. It takes a while for them to pick up the experience. We must remember our audience when speaking about technical issues and rules.

You may have something like this already but I thought I would suggest something like a check-off list only more.

List the sections:
bumpers
electrical
etc.

with maybe a sample explanation, sketch, or photo of what is acceptable/preferred/outstanding

and then leave room in each section for the rookies to take notes while you talk with them.

Inspectors provide the info sheet but the teams takes the notes.

Apologies if this is nothing new and already in process.
Jane

[Jon236]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

I have found that if the first event is not the next week, most rookies will forget the changes we tell them need to be made. One of our biggest problems is remembering that rookies do not know what we are talking about most of the time. It takes a while for them to pick up the experience. We must remember our audience when speaking about technical issues and rules.

To Al & Mike,

I value your input. When would be the best time? At a local kickoff? One week into build?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Jon236

To Al & Mike,

I value your input. When would be the best time? At a local kickoff? One week into build?

Jon,
This is an issue we are struggling with. The answer may be all of the above. Some rookies will need the reminder several times while some may not need it all. I experimented with a rookie only meeting each day during the rookie Minnesota Regional for mentors only. I did this because that event had 38 rookie teams. It might be a good idea to initiate that at each event. I believe that the inspection staff has the best ability to be a first contact for teams and are the only volunteers actively in the pits all weekend. We see problems before the team even knows in some cases. We can see issues with team members, mentors and/or robots early and should have the knowledge of how to help, how to get other teams involved and how to get answers. There is a few documents for inspectors that give them a "to do list" for each day that makes it easier for an inspector or lead.
I feel very strongly that we need to concentrate on rookies and any struggling teams and insure they have a great experience. After continuing sponsorship, that may be the next item to sustaining teams.

[tdnader]

maybe we should start to use the time during field set up on Wednesday, say after 5 or 6PM for team load in and inspection, for those teams that are ready for inspection. The time saved from uncrateing, pit set up, then inspection on Thursday, would allow teams to go and seek out the teams that need help on Thursday morning.

[Bob Steele]

Having a team load in on Wednesday night would really help the Thursday bottle neck (We do it in Atlanta..) BUT I don't think that this may be possible given contractual obligations with the various venues......

This is definitely worth pursuing though.... a load in like we have in Atlanta...
Robot uncrate... batteries charging... one load of tools... two students and one adult only...... would really help on Thursday morning...


great idea!!!

[EricH]

If the volunteers are for it, that could work. The folks setting up the field are often fairly well versed in the robots' more technical aspects and could give a size/weight/safety check before the inspectors get to do the full inspection. And the teams could help test the field electronics, should they be ready.

The disadvantage? The field may or may not be up by 5-6 PM Wednesday, depending on manpower and complexity, tying up the setup crew there, so inspection isn't set up. Counteract that by snagging one or two people per team to help the setup crew.

[Mark McLeod]

There are more activities that would have to be worked around the Wednesday before. There's an order to things, and every step needs time to complete, e.g., rigging goes up first, field goes up after the riggers are out of the way, inspection stations get setup when the inspectors get off work for the day.

After field setup and checkout we usually do a volunteer dinner, followed by final training and setup of the inspection areas. We're still getting our act together the night before.
The roadies are usually still setting up the things that come last, like running power cables for the pits. Having teams milling around would make their jobs miserable.

Not to say it isn't doable, just don't imagine it's as easy as pie...

[KevinRo]

Sorry, I am a bit late to this conversation. I think we are arriving at some potential ways to implement the 10 qualification matches.

As a preface, I think most teams would like the ability to compete more. So I am approaching this issue as a good thing. It does, however, mean changes to a sacred schedule that has been part of the FRC community for a long time. If we accept that the change is a positive step, then we just need to work on details of implementation.

For the larger events, like Seattle with 64 teams, going from 7 matches to 10 matches requires 3 additional rounds. That is going to work out to be about 4 hours of additional play time. How this gets allocated is undecided at the moment, but the cold hard truth is that is requires moving some play into Thursday. Noon on Thursday just isn't possible no matter how many ways I have attempted to schedule it. However, I think 4:30 on Thursday is very possible, allowing us to pickup 2 rounds on Thursday.

Traditionally, many teams have viewed Thursday as the last day of the build season. Their robots come in incomplete and in need of substaintial work before they can actually run on the field. As everyone has thoughtfully stated already, we need to change that expectation this year.

I would love some feedback on the following proposal. What if we required all teams to have an inspection on Saturday, Feb 20th by a certified robot inspector? This pre-ship inspection means that the build season needs to be respected this year, rather than shipping an incomplete project. The goal here is to reduce the amount of onsite inspection repairs so that teams are ready to compete on Thursday afternoon. Here is a snippet from a proposal I have been discussing:

"One item that we can require pre-ship is for a preliminary inspection to be done by a qualified robot inspector. In the populated areas around Seattle, we can arrange to have a group of trained inspectors available for on-site inspections the Saturday before shipping. All teams are required to have this pre-ship inspection two days before shipping. The goal here is for the teams to catch the low hanging fruit (bad wiring, wrong materials, size issues, etc) BEFORE the ship to an event. They can then have time to correct these issues in their own shop, rather than doing it at the event. For teams in rural areas, all teams will be required to designate one third party to act as a certified inspector. We will give this person basic robot inspection materials and training at least a week in advance. This does not take the place of the full inspection on Thursday, but it will hopefully allow the teams to shave 4 hours off their day on Thursday.

We may also implement an 'express line' for teams who have competed before. Ironically, the 'express line' inspections won't happen until later in the day (around noon), so we can get the rookie and uninspected robots done first. That gives them time to get changes implemented."

To summarize:
1) Require an inspection 2 days before shipping
2) Thursday, all inspections MUST be completed by 4pm
3) Play starts on Thursday evening.
4) The 'build season' really does end on ship day. This is the change in thinking.

I welcome your comments!

Kevin Ross
FIRSTWA Chairman

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Kevin,
Your proposal will work in some areas and not in others. Many teams are struggling to get moving on that Saturday before ship. I know our team is working feverishly to get things complete on the robot, software issues fixed and prep work for our Sunday pre-ship party. In other areas, teams are so spread out, that visits are near impossible. We can figure that at midwest regionals, (Minnesota, Milwaukee, Midwest, BMR and St. Louis) teams will travel up to three hours on average, for teams outside the regional city. In rare cases we may have teams who travel up to six or more hours. i.e. from Arkansas or Ohio to Chicago. What may be more important is to inspect rookies prior to ship. Pre-ship parties should be made mandatory for rookies where travel does not prevent it.
As far as build, I can't tell you how many teams ship the robot and then analyze what they have done. Realizing their idea is flawed they plan on rebuild on Thursday at a regional. To not allow this, IMHO, would weaken the competition and hurt the students. It has always been my stance to tender all decisions based on the student impact. If the decision we make in any way wrongly impacts the students we need to rethink that decision. Experienced mentors know that the game changes throughout the season and to not allow design change to compensate weakens the competition.