[BB]: KOP info

[Bob Steele]

I have 2 questions...

Will veteran teams have the choice of paying the rookie fee and receiving the extra parts? If so when does that request have to be made????? Certainly that would have to be a choice made quickly in order for FIRST to have the necessary parts in hand.

If a part is NOT included in the veteran kit of parts... (ie the camera) Can a team utilize any camera that they want to use? The camera is a good example of something that a team should be able to choose for themselves... especially if it is not included in the first place...

It would seem to me that the rules about OTS parts should be loosened up considerably.... just the bare minimum types of parts should be detailed.
In looking at the process over the past few years... I can see this has already started... (ie pneumatic cylinders from last year...)

Batteries, control system, motors, these need to stay the same for everyone and they need to be provided...or spec'd

I really only have a big issue about the batteries....
1 battery for a veteran team....
I know the "new batteries" we have changed to do NOT have the ability to stay viable like our old batteries did... and they are prone to break down...you can see many threads on this issue...

I have to agree with many... I feel like we have been told we have been "given" this big reduction in cost for teams.... but in reality we will have to pay more to get the same thing....

It's like buying that new car and getting a great price but now you need to pay for the 3rd and 4th tire and the second wind shield wiper....just take them off your old car....

I don't have an answer.... but I like to get the straight scoop...
just tell us the way it has to be.... don't white wash it...

[IKE]

Originally Posted by Madison

Is there anyone around here that can speak to how these changes will make the 2010 season significantly better for their team or region? I'm sure many, if not all, of the teams that are going to shell out the extra $2000 required for all of these omitted parts would HAPPILY pay an extra $1000 for registration and give the remaining $1000 to a team in need.

Excellent Question Madison. I am going to take a stab at it.

One thing we should all keep in mind is that realistically we are all playing with donated money (some more than others). Some teams work really hard and sell things to fund their teams (or pay out of pocket), but then still go to a Regional that is not funded by registration fees, but by corporate sponsors directly through the Regional or indirectly subsidized through donations to FIRST.

My guess is where this "helps" most of us is it allows for the FRC to continue on in a reasonable fashion. Unlike other "fairness" rules and attempts that often have backfired, I think this was probably a legitimate compromise of trying to balance the FRC Budget. I know some folks are going to quote surplus budgets, but let's remember they are looking into the long term. If heating costs go up, and your paycheck goes down, do you continue to keep the house at 75F in December (and then freeze in Feb. when you run out of money), or do you drop the thermostat down to 68 and throw on a sweater?

(I understand that this is one of those government economics answers that would be excessively difficult to prove, but it is my gut feeling).

One of the great opportunities of a down economy are that for most of us, it helps us re-look at "needs" vs. "wants". While some "wants" have always been obvious (wanting to fly to Hawaii regional vs. driving to Detroit), others are less obvious. Your robot and thus your team "needs a control system". Teams "want to leave the old bot in tact".

Opportunities for this could be figuring out a design that is more transportable and more plug and play. I saw an interesting controls system "board" designed for OCCRA. The kids called it the "Brain Bucket". It was a plastic tub that had the IFI controller, and all the power electronics except the battery mounted to the bottom and sides. I think they re-used the "brain bucket" for years, and with about 50% of the wiring already done, it made wiring up a simple robot super quick and easy.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by IKE

Excellent Question Madison. I am going to take a stab at it.

One thing we should all keep in mind is that realistically we are all playing with donated money (some more than others). Some teams work really hard and sell things to fund their teams (or pay out of pocket), but then still go to a Regional that is not funded by registration fees, but by corporate sponsors directly through the Regional or indirectly subsidized through donations to FIRST.

My guess is where this "helps" most of us is it allows for the FRC to continue on in a reasonable fashion. Unlike other "fairness" rules and attempts that often have backfired, I think this was probably a legitimate compromise of trying to balance the FRC Budget. I know some folks are going to quote surplus budgets, but let's remember they are looking into the long term. If heating costs go up, and your paycheck goes down, do you continue to keep the house at 75F in December (and then freeze in Feb. when you run out of money), or do you drop the thermostat down to 68 and throw on a sweater?

(I understand that this is one of those government economics answers that would be excessively difficult to prove, but it is my gut feeling).

One of the great opportunities of a down economy are that for most of us, it helps us re-look at "needs" vs. "wants". While some "wants" have always been obvious (wanting to fly to Hawaii regional vs. driving to Detroit), others are less obvious. Your robot and thus your team "needs a control system". Teams "want to leave the old bot in tact".

Opportunities for this could be figuring out a design that is more transportable and more plug and play. I saw an interesting controls system "board" designed for OCCRA. The kids called it the "Brain Bucket". It was a plastic tub that had the IFI controller, and all the power electronics except the battery mounted to the bottom and sides. I think they re-used the "brain bucket" for years, and with about 50% of the wiring already done, it made wiring up a simple robot super quick and easy.

I hear what you’re saying about the sustainability of FIRST, their surplus budget, and teams weighing their “wants” vs. “needs”. The two teams I mentor may want to do FIRST, but they don’t need to. They have no surplus budget. Which way do you think they will eventually go?

[diviney]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

I got $2105. See attached.

For those who came up with the $1400-range estimates, where are the differences between your tally and mine?

My number also doesn't account for any shipping charges.

Travis:

Thanks for taking the time to tally the cost difference. I believe you may have overlooked a critical (and reasonably expensive item). The Power Distribution module is of course required to provide the 24V to the cRIO, and it costs almost $200. This raises your hard tally to $2300. As you state, you did not include shipping, which I'm sure would be another hundred or two. We are almost up to $2500.

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by diviney

Travis:

Thanks for taking the time to tally the cost difference. I believe you may have overlooked a critical (and reasonably expensive item). The Power Distribution module is of course required to provide the 24V to the cRIO, and it costs almost $200. This raises your hard tally to $2300. As you state, you did not include shipping, which I'm sure would be another hundred or two. We are almost up to $2500.

I didn't see the PD listed in the comparison chart. To me, this indicates that veterans will be receiving one in their KoP. Is this the conclusion that others have reached?

[johnr]

Isn't there a limit to how much you can spend on a bot? If you choose to not use last years parts/electronics , do you have to figure that cost into the bom or what ever it is called?

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by johnr

Isn't there a limit to how much you can spend on a bot? If you choose to not use last years parts/electronics , do you have to figure that cost into the bom or what ever it is called?

There was a limit to how much you could spend on parts for you robot in addition to the KOP, any and every rule is subject to change. There may or may not be a similar restriction this year.

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that a restriction will still be in place and that all teams will be able to use the parts available in the rookie KOP without accounting for their cost on the BOM.

[EricVanWyk]

I hate to fan flames, but I thought of another context to think about this in. It involves a couple of assumptions that probably aren't true, so please view it more as an exercise than a model of reality.

Assumptions:

1. The contents of the veteran KoP is the result of an optimization problem. Solution goodness is only measured by average cost to teams.(Probably not true).
2. For a given part, only X% of teams will make use of it in a given year.
3. For a given part, it only costs Y% as much to include it in the KoP as it does for a team to purchase it separately.

Conclusions:

1. Parts that are included in the KoP but not used by a team is the equivalent of that team subsidizing teams that do use them.
2. Conversely, not including a part in the KoP can be considered as subsidizing the other fraction of the teams.
3. The optimal solution (for the given assumption) is to include a part only when X>Y.

We, the community, can only make assumptions as to what X and Y are for the various parts. FRC HQ knows Y and has decent estimates of X.

What should the optimization strategy be? Lowest average? Lowest Median? Lowest competitive option? Lowest option that doesn't force recycling?

How do we account for the fact that money is actually a non-linear quantity? (Saving a low budget team 1000$ is different than saving a big budget team 1000$. Lowering the minimum cost may be the difference between competing or not competing to some very poor teams).

What other hidden costs are there? (Not having a part be in the KoP also costs time. Donated money can behave oddly.)

How do we work into account the terrible condition of the economy (and therefore our donors)?

Although my exercise is crude, I do hope it gives a useful strawman perspective.

[Trying to Help]

I just wanted to say thank you to the poster who compiled price lists. I had to create a document tonight estimating the value of the 2010 parts on a 2009 robot. You saved me quite a bit of work.