Need for Inspections Rules Changes

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by Jon236

Excellent idea......if Mike Betts is reading this, maybe we could do this in CT? The Ticks would be glad to help!

Jon,

I have attended the Suffield Shakedown (Connecticut's pre-ship scrimmage hosted by Team 176) every year and, in my capacity as Lead Inspector, always do my best to visit each and every team to offer my services.

The two big issues are that (1) most rookie teams do not fully realize the importance of attending the scrimmage and (2) only about 50% of the CT Regional's teams are in attendance.

I rather doubt that either of these issues will change much in the future but keep them ideas a-comin'.

Regards,

Mike

Postscript:

I had even planned to expand my efforts last year and had reserved a classroom for training of robot inspectors on the new control system. This initiative was canceled when it became evident that only 5 of 12 robot inspectors had signed up in VIMS at the time of the scrimmage. - M.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I have found that if the first event is not the next week, most rookies will forget the changes we tell them need to be made. One of our biggest problems is remembering that rookies do not know what we are talking about most of the time. It takes a while for them to pick up the experience. We must remember our audience when speaking about technical issues and rules.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

One of our biggest problems is remembering that rookies do not know what we are talking about most of the time. It takes a while for them to pick up the experience. We must remember our audience when speaking about technical issues and rules.

You may have something like this already but I thought I would suggest something like a check-off list only more.

List the sections:
bumpers
electrical
etc.

with maybe a sample explanation, sketch, or photo of what is acceptable/preferred/outstanding

and then leave room in each section for the rookies to take notes while you talk with them.

Inspectors provide the info sheet but the teams takes the notes.

Apologies if this is nothing new and already in process.
Jane

[Jon236]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

I have found that if the first event is not the next week, most rookies will forget the changes we tell them need to be made. One of our biggest problems is remembering that rookies do not know what we are talking about most of the time. It takes a while for them to pick up the experience. We must remember our audience when speaking about technical issues and rules.

To Al & Mike,

I value your input. When would be the best time? At a local kickoff? One week into build?

[gburlison]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

But the elephant in the room is really the issue of certain rules that take far too much effort to comply with and enforce, proportional to their actual value. These often greatly lengthen the inspection process, and are directly responsible for the occasional acrimonious discussion that takes place between inspectors and team members (usually mentors).

Since the pneumatics were vastly improved for 2009 (no brand and quantity limits), bumpers are the biggest sticking point. In retrospect, the bumper rule did improve from 2008 to 2009, but suffered during the season from a series of interpretations in the Q&A and updates that introduced new issues and didn't quite account for some difficult cases in a clear and uncontradictory way.

I agree that part of the problem is the rules. In my 9 years as a mentor, I have seen many robots that I thought would not pass inspection, only to find out later that my interpretation of the rules was not entirely correct. How can I act as an unofficial inspector for the team next to me in the pits if I am unsure of the rules myself?

On another note, at the regional we attended last year, there just was not enough room set aside for the inspectors. The scale and sizing box were too close together making it difficult to move from the scale to the box without getting in the way of each other. The robots lined up at the scale and the size box often stretched down the aisle making it almost impossible to get to the nearby pits.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Jon236

To Al & Mike,

I value your input. When would be the best time? At a local kickoff? One week into build?

Jon,
This is an issue we are struggling with. The answer may be all of the above. Some rookies will need the reminder several times while some may not need it all. I experimented with a rookie only meeting each day during the rookie Minnesota Regional for mentors only. I did this because that event had 38 rookie teams. It might be a good idea to initiate that at each event. I believe that the inspection staff has the best ability to be a first contact for teams and are the only volunteers actively in the pits all weekend. We see problems before the team even knows in some cases. We can see issues with team members, mentors and/or robots early and should have the knowledge of how to help, how to get other teams involved and how to get answers. There is a few documents for inspectors that give them a "to do list" for each day that makes it easier for an inspector or lead.
I feel very strongly that we need to concentrate on rookies and any struggling teams and insure they have a great experience. After continuing sponsorship, that may be the next item to sustaining teams.

[tdnader]

maybe we should start to use the time during field set up on Wednesday, say after 5 or 6PM for team load in and inspection, for those teams that are ready for inspection. The time saved from uncrateing, pit set up, then inspection on Thursday, would allow teams to go and seek out the teams that need help on Thursday morning.

[Bob Steele]

Having a team load in on Wednesday night would really help the Thursday bottle neck (We do it in Atlanta..) BUT I don't think that this may be possible given contractual obligations with the various venues......

This is definitely worth pursuing though.... a load in like we have in Atlanta...
Robot uncrate... batteries charging... one load of tools... two students and one adult only...... would really help on Thursday morning...


great idea!!!

[EricH]

If the volunteers are for it, that could work. The folks setting up the field are often fairly well versed in the robots' more technical aspects and could give a size/weight/safety check before the inspectors get to do the full inspection. And the teams could help test the field electronics, should they be ready.

The disadvantage? The field may or may not be up by 5-6 PM Wednesday, depending on manpower and complexity, tying up the setup crew there, so inspection isn't set up. Counteract that by snagging one or two people per team to help the setup crew.

[Mark McLeod]

There are more activities that would have to be worked around the Wednesday before. There's an order to things, and every step needs time to complete, e.g., rigging goes up first, field goes up after the riggers are out of the way, inspection stations get setup when the inspectors get off work for the day.

After field setup and checkout we usually do a volunteer dinner, followed by final training and setup of the inspection areas. We're still getting our act together the night before.
The roadies are usually still setting up the things that come last, like running power cables for the pits. Having teams milling around would make their jobs miserable.

Not to say it isn't doable, just don't imagine it's as easy as pie...

[KevinRo]

Sorry, I am a bit late to this conversation. I think we are arriving at some potential ways to implement the 10 qualification matches.

As a preface, I think most teams would like the ability to compete more. So I am approaching this issue as a good thing. It does, however, mean changes to a sacred schedule that has been part of the FRC community for a long time. If we accept that the change is a positive step, then we just need to work on details of implementation.

For the larger events, like Seattle with 64 teams, going from 7 matches to 10 matches requires 3 additional rounds. That is going to work out to be about 4 hours of additional play time. How this gets allocated is undecided at the moment, but the cold hard truth is that is requires moving some play into Thursday. Noon on Thursday just isn't possible no matter how many ways I have attempted to schedule it. However, I think 4:30 on Thursday is very possible, allowing us to pickup 2 rounds on Thursday.

Traditionally, many teams have viewed Thursday as the last day of the build season. Their robots come in incomplete and in need of substaintial work before they can actually run on the field. As everyone has thoughtfully stated already, we need to change that expectation this year.

I would love some feedback on the following proposal. What if we required all teams to have an inspection on Saturday, Feb 20th by a certified robot inspector? This pre-ship inspection means that the build season needs to be respected this year, rather than shipping an incomplete project. The goal here is to reduce the amount of onsite inspection repairs so that teams are ready to compete on Thursday afternoon. Here is a snippet from a proposal I have been discussing:

"One item that we can require pre-ship is for a preliminary inspection to be done by a qualified robot inspector. In the populated areas around Seattle, we can arrange to have a group of trained inspectors available for on-site inspections the Saturday before shipping. All teams are required to have this pre-ship inspection two days before shipping. The goal here is for the teams to catch the low hanging fruit (bad wiring, wrong materials, size issues, etc) BEFORE the ship to an event. They can then have time to correct these issues in their own shop, rather than doing it at the event. For teams in rural areas, all teams will be required to designate one third party to act as a certified inspector. We will give this person basic robot inspection materials and training at least a week in advance. This does not take the place of the full inspection on Thursday, but it will hopefully allow the teams to shave 4 hours off their day on Thursday.

We may also implement an 'express line' for teams who have competed before. Ironically, the 'express line' inspections won't happen until later in the day (around noon), so we can get the rookie and uninspected robots done first. That gives them time to get changes implemented."

To summarize:
1) Require an inspection 2 days before shipping
2) Thursday, all inspections MUST be completed by 4pm
3) Play starts on Thursday evening.
4) The 'build season' really does end on ship day. This is the change in thinking.

I welcome your comments!

Kevin Ross
FIRSTWA Chairman

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Kevin,
Your proposal will work in some areas and not in others. Many teams are struggling to get moving on that Saturday before ship. I know our team is working feverishly to get things complete on the robot, software issues fixed and prep work for our Sunday pre-ship party. In other areas, teams are so spread out, that visits are near impossible. We can figure that at midwest regionals, (Minnesota, Milwaukee, Midwest, BMR and St. Louis) teams will travel up to three hours on average, for teams outside the regional city. In rare cases we may have teams who travel up to six or more hours. i.e. from Arkansas or Ohio to Chicago. What may be more important is to inspect rookies prior to ship. Pre-ship parties should be made mandatory for rookies where travel does not prevent it.
As far as build, I can't tell you how many teams ship the robot and then analyze what they have done. Realizing their idea is flawed they plan on rebuild on Thursday at a regional. To not allow this, IMHO, would weaken the competition and hurt the students. It has always been my stance to tender all decisions based on the student impact. If the decision we make in any way wrongly impacts the students we need to rethink that decision. Experienced mentors know that the game changes throughout the season and to not allow design change to compensate weakens the competition.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Kevin,

As far as build, I can't tell you how many teams ship the robot and then analyze what they have done. Realizing their idea is flawed they plan on rebuild on Thursday at a regional. To not allow this, IMHO, would weaken the competition and hurt the students. It has always been my stance to tender all decisions based on the student impact. If the decision we make in any way wrongly impacts the students we need to rethink that decision. Experienced mentors know that the game changes throughout the season and to not allow design change to compensate weakens the competition.

Based on Kevin's proposal, it does not completely take away from allowing teams to rebuild on Thursday. Teams have until 4 PM to complete inspection, teams would have a few hours to work on a rebuild.

However, the bigger issue is that Thursday being considered part of build season has to stop in order for this system to work. We have 6 weeks of build season, which FIRST has said is enough time for build season. 7 weeks they consider to much time and 5 weeks is not enough time. I know that my team blows our schedule on when stuff can get done in time during build. Teams need to keep in mind when they need to be finished with certain items on the robot during the build season. If you don't have a schedule in place get on or else you might not have a working robot at competition.

my $0.02

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

However, the bigger issue is that Thursday being considered part of build season has to stop in order for this system to work. We have 6 weeks of build season, which FIRST has said is enough time for build season.
my $0.02

Brendan,
I ask you to consider the team that has followed the prescribed build schedule, shipped a robot on time and gets to their first and only competition to find that they are either severely overweight or have left out a critical robot function. How does a decision to prevent build or modification at this event affect the team, the students? How does this decision hamper every team who finds them as an alliance partner and essentially prevents any team from rendering assistance as required by GP?

[KevinRo]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Brendan,
I ask you to consider the team that has followed the prescribed build schedule, shipped a robot on time and gets to their first and only competition to find that they are either severely overweight or have left out a critical robot function. How does a decision to prevent build or modification at this event affect the team, the students? How does this decision hamper every team who finds them as an alliance partner and essentially prevents any team from rendering assistance as required by GP?

Al, I understand your point. You are hitting exactly my point with this reply. Yes, please consider this team. They show up at an event with an overweight or otherwise flawed design. This would have been caught on the Saturday pre-ship inspection rather than Thursday at noon when they finally get into inspections at the event.

I am attempting to solve two issues with this proposal. The desire for teams to play more rounds plus the ongoing issue of teams having a complete panic day on Thursday trying to accomplish what should have been accomplished at home on a reasonable schedule.

Nothing in this proposal excludes teams from working on their robot Thursday. However, they are required to finish their robot work at home 2 days early. That gives them a full two days to repair their issues, rather than doing it in panic mode.

This is just a change in thinking. We have all become too used to the previous schedule. Teams will make this work.