[BB]: Regional Variations & Bagging It

[Fe_Will]

Do mentors helping students build robots regardless of size inspire? Yes.
Do robots regardless of size make the general public take interest in science and technology? Yes
Do students learn some important life skills like team work regardless of robot size? yes

But, I personally feel that having a predetermined kit to work from is an extremely limiting factor in many robotics competitions out there. Yes, there are students who get something out of them but, having an open ended kit allows for a higher diversity of students to participate. For example, we are currently trying to recruit a senior who has his welding certificate from our local community college. Whether or not he joins the team is completely dependent on being able to weld to keep his skills up. There is no way we could recruit him if we did VRC/FTC. The opportunities for students to be exposed to and learn about real world manufacturing, fabrication and assembly are so much more advanced in FRC.

My other major issue with VRC/FTC/FLL is the event format. Having multi-day FRC events makes our program stand out as being something more than a science fair to our school and community. Having regionals where students on our team get to tell their their friends that they are going to a 3 day event in another state is a BIG deal. And for those students who aren't on the honor roll or play a sport it is a HUGE deal.

I think that FFL is a great thing. I have personally volunteered at our local FLL event for the past 5 years (many times on my birthday). Its fun and a great scale for that age group.

I think the greatest thing for FTC would be to allow 6th and 7th graders to participate. If they would be allowed to compete then FIRST would have a better overall system for promoting its core values. I would stand completely behind a setup where a student could go FLL in 4-5th grades, FTC in 6-8th grades and FRC in 9-12th grades. Leaving the overlap to adjust for economic and emotional levels of course.

Back to the thread topic:

Originally Posted by Cory

I sure hope FIRST has some sort of minimum standard they intend to enforce for quality.

Agreed

[EricH]

Note that some school districts complain about students missing a lot of school when they go to a 2-day event. (I'm leaving Saturday off because it isn't a school day.) For those schools, FTC/VRC could be a better option.

Likewise, absolutely nothing says that you can't be in one, two, three, four, or more competitions. Many a team does FTC/VRC (and FLL, in a supporting role) in the fall and FRC in the spring.

Predetermined kit to work from is NOT a limit. See the early FRC rules once again. (I understand that sometimes a drill was included--it was used for building the robot, then driving the robot.) See the creativity shown by the teams back then.

[Fe_Will]

Originally Posted by EricH

Note that some school districts complain about students missing a lot of school when they go to a 2-day event. (I'm leaving Saturday off because it isn't a school day.) For those schools, FTC/VRC could be a better option.

Likewise, absolutely nothing says that you can't be in one, two, three, four, or more competitions. Many a team does FTC/VRC (and FLL, in a supporting role) in the fall and FRC in the spring.

Predetermined kit to work from is NOT a limit. See the early FRC rules once again. (I understand that sometimes a drill was included--it was used for building the robot, then driving the robot.) See the creativity shown by the teams back then.

Humans used to use stone tools and hunt with sticks. We figured it out eventually, the same can be said for FRC evolution. Our school has learned to understand and support our efforts(and missed days) due to the effort we have made the past 8 years to change the culture.


I don't see why you feel the need to be hostile. I understand your position and respect your view. How about you do the same for me?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Fe_Will

I don't see why you feel the need to be hostile. I understand your position and respect your view. How about you do the same for me?

I don't understand why you felt the need to insult FTC and VRC. I'm trying not to be hostile towards you; but when it seems that you are hostile towards something for no reason, then that kind of riles me. That's part of why I started the thread on negativity on CD--people are being negative/hostile for no reason.

You may not like something, but please don't insult it for no reason other than not liking it.

[ATannahill]

Eric and Will, please enjoy this fact-based post.

Originally Posted by Fe_Will

That's OK if you don't agree. I would prefer to continue to participate in a Varsity Level Competition.

On the FIRST website FRC is called “The varsity sport for the mind” I cannot find the word Varsity linked with FTC, FLL, or JFLL.

Originally Posted by Fe_Will

But, I personally feel that having a predetermined kit to work from is an extremely limiting factor in many robotics competitions out there. Yes, there are students who get something out of them but, having an open ended kit allows for a higher diversity of students to participate. For example, we are currently trying to recruit a senior who has his welding certificate from our local community college. Whether or not he joins the team is completely dependent on being able to weld to keep his skills up. There is no way we could recruit him if we did VRC/FTC. The opportunities for students to be exposed to and learn about real world manufacturing, fabrication and assembly are so much more advanced in FRC.

My other major issue with VRC/FTC/FLL is the event format. Having multi-day FRC events makes our program stand out as being something more than a science fair to our school and community. Having regionals where students on our team get to tell their their friends that they are going to a 3 day event in another state is a BIG deal. And for those students who aren't on the honor roll or play a sport it is a HUGE deal.

Facts and information for why Will chooses FRC with respect to other competitions. Even if some are just opinions. But does he think that FTC/FLL/JFLL is not important?

Originally Posted by Fe_Will

Do mentors helping students build robots regardless of size inspire? Yes.
Do robots regardless of size make the general public take interest in science and technology? Yes
Do students learn some important life skills like team work regardless of robot size? yes

I think that FFL is a great thing. I have personally volunteered at our local FLL event for the past 5 years (many times on my birthday). Its fun and a great scale for that age group.

This information shows otherwise.

Originally Posted by EricH

Note that some school districts complain about students missing a lot of school when they go to a 2-day event. (I'm leaving Saturday off because it isn't a school day.) For those schools, FTC/VRC could be a better option.

Likewise, absolutely nothing says that you can't be in one, two, three, four, or more competitions. Many a team does FTC/VRC (and FLL, in a supporting role) in the fall and FRC in the spring.

Predetermined kit to work from is NOT a limit. See the early FRC rules once again. (I understand that sometimes a drill was included--it was used for building the robot, then driving the robot.) See the creativity shown by the teams back then.

<opinion>I fail to see any of this as hostile or insulting, but just as two people with different opinions.</opinion> Without arguments and opinions CD will be nothing but a group of yes-men. Just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they are being negative.

[ebarker]

maybe no one wants to hear it but i will tell a story.......

Once upon a time I fancied myself a classic guitar player, a lousy one indeed. I set off on a quest to purchase the 'perfect guitar'. I visited the classic guitar dealer and the salesman immediately spotted me, a middle aged man with money in the pocket.

So I was sat down in the showroom with attendents bring me guitar after guitar to try out. Eventually I settled on three beautiful guitars. There was no single perfect instrument. It was like having to decide between a beautiful blonde, brunette, and redhead.

All were unique, all perfect in their own way. What I really wanted was all three guitars.

Obviously the point I'm trying to make is there is no perfect robotics program. There is a best fit solution for each individual.

Setting aside the FTC/VEX debacle for the moment, there is IMHO no useful point in saying that FTC, VEX, or FRC is 'the best' in general. It depends on your specific circumstances.

My team and I do a lot of presentations and the recommendations we make differ from crowd to crowd. We ignore the fact that VEX isn't part of FIRST and make the recommendation when necessary. Ditto for FTC. FRC is what the doctor ordered for other audiences.

In other threads there are comments about the the wisdom of changing control systems in FRC. I can tell you without reservation that the control system changes has opened the doors to new and important audiences.

But the FTC/VEX debacle, that is another story.

And to put a fine point on the issue.... If your team mission is to "change culture and inspire students" then that mission trumphs a lot of things, including promoting a specific brand of robotics, or when necessary even robotics itself. We have to drink our own kool-aid and be an honest broker...

.

[waialua359]

FRC is definitely a Varsity Sport.

We do both VEX and FRC now. I dont see any differences in regards to the demand for time spent on design and programming, while working with the kids. However, the resources necessary to be successful at both are vastly different.
Resources meaning mentors, facilities, materials, funding, fabrication, and $$$.

I dont think the comparisons in this thread are apples to apples.

Certain team goals can be met with both FRC and VEX, but certainly not all of them. If one of the missions of FIRST is to inspire kids to see/experience what's out there in industry, then FRC is certainly the best at providing that avenue, hands down IMO.

[NorviewsVeteran]

If one was to call the FRC "varsity," I would be inclined to refer to the FTC and VRC not as "junior varsity," but closer to "varsity, jr."

I like the current FRC size, nominally speaking, of course. You can usually see it from the stands (remember, not all of us watch it on TV) and can still lug it around with two people. It's small enough to fit into a classroom, yet large enough to demand respect and be gestured upon without 'pointing to' the whole robot. Plus, they're good to lean on sometimes.

FTC/FVC bots can be carried in by one person, be set down on a desk, and are a good pointing to size. Of course, if not noticed, they can be tripped upon. (poor Jake)

Plus, their relative sizes seem to be the perfect size for David & Goliath. But don't take my word for it.

And remember: if we weren't all crazy, we'd all go insane.

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by NorviewsVeteran

Plus, their relative sizes seem to be the perfect size for David & Goliath. But don't take my word for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjBIBJV-cKg


david vs what?

[NorviewsVeteran]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjBIBJV-cKg
david vs what?

Like I said, don't take my word for it, you should probably take his instead.