VEX beats Tetrix and others in bid to develop a robotics competition for the TSA

[smartkid]

It's my personal opinion that the Tetrix "Kit" is horrible and about twice as costly as it should be. TSA choosing Vex was a no-brainer. Palm Bay High students have been using vex parts for TSA events for years.

[gblake]

I know that life is rarely simple or one-dimensional; but I occasionally like to view the Vex program as one of FIRST's most compelling success stories.

We all build on the big and small accomplishments of those who have come before us.

I suggest today is a good day to pause and pass out pats-on-the-back for everyone inspiring students.

I say this to the hard-charging team at IFI (plus a zillion volunteers), to the culture-changing team at FIRST HQ (plus a zillion volunteers), to the public servants at NASA, at the Patent Office, in halls of our government, in our schools, and in our other institutions, to the corporate sponsors that invest in their/our futures, to the other complementary robotics/STEM programs, to everyone involved

Today is a good day.

Blake

[Jon Jack]

Originally Posted by gblake

I know that life is rarely simple or one-dimensional; but I occasionally like to view the Vex program as one of FIRST's most compelling success stories.

I would disagree. I would have to say the Vex is on of FIRST's most compelling screw ups. FIRST shot themselves in the foot big time when they moved to the Tetrix platform.

I have yet to find an FTC team that does not complain about how expensive and cumbersome the Tetrix platform is. Many well established FTC teams are considering or have already moved to VRC.

Look at how poorly the FTC FMS ran last year. By Atlanta, teams had to bring their own laptops to the field and run their robots outside of the FMS. This did not leave a good feeling in many of the FTC teams that competed at Championships last year.

Without a doubt, Vex is kicking the snot out of FTC/Tetrix. Look at how many more VRC teams there are, look at how many more VRC tournaments there are, look at the projected growth numbers. VRC is winning in every category. Way to go IFI, keep up the good work. Congrats on this partnership!

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Jon Jack

I would disagree. I would have to say the Vex is on of FIRST's most compelling screw ups. FIRST shot themselves in the foot big time when they moved to the Tetrix platform. ...

JJ,

Sounds like what you are telling me is that the Tetrix product line that FTC uses is still having growing pains; but that the VEX products that IFI, Radio Shack and FIRST collaborated to create and initially popularize, are doing well.

Hence, to the extent that FIRST played a large role in getting Vex off the ground, the Vex product line is a success story for FIRST (and everyone else involved).

Whether FIRST's decision to stop using Vex in the FTC was wise (given what is known publicly) - Well, that horse has already been thoroughly beaten.

Blake

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by gblake

Whether FIRST's decision to stop using in the FTC was wise (given what is known publicly) - Well, that horse has already been thoroughly beaten.

The life-status of an equine animal has never affected the degree of corporal punishment administered on this BBS.

[Barry Bonzack]

This is not another "Tetrix vs Vex" thread (despite the title).

Great job IFI team in all of the effort given to promote science and technology, and inspiring thousands of students at a low cost!

[Foster]

Great Back to Back Posts!

Rick TYler: The life-status of an equine animal has never affected the degree of corporal punishment administered on this BBS.

and then the signature on Barry Bonzack's post:

No animals were harmed in the making of this post.

I'm pretty excited about all the TSA students starting with the program. We have a large number of TSA groups in Pennsylvania. It will be cool to go to their contests and see what ideas they have.

As a bonus it's another huge pool of students that may get interested in robotics and then feed into FRC. At the least it's a start in getting students interested in engineering.

Congrats go to IFI for not only having a great product in VEX, but also having a marketing team to make deals like this. While we all think that robotics and VEX sell themselves, it takes a huge marketing and sales push to get this kind of commitment.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Foster

Congrats go to IFI for not only having a great product in VEX, but also having a marketing team to make deals like this. While we all think that robotics and VEX sell themselves, it takes a huge marketing and sales push to get this kind of commitment.

While there is truth in this statement, it was National TSA that went seeking a "signature robotics event" in this case, first asking questions very informally as far back as three years ago, evaluating all of its options, then beginning formal talks a year ago with IFI. TSA has been looking to add head-to-head robotics competition to its long list of competitive STEM events for awhile and really did their homework on this one, so let's give credit where credit is due. On the IFI side it was a matter of recognizing the obvious fit, listening closely to TSA's vision and needs and delivering on something that's a good fit for all. This is the main reason I enjoy my consulting work with IFI so much - vision and meeting needs of the customer.

If you think you like what you've read about in the announcement so far, just wait - there's more to come.

[JaneYoung]

Actually, in a way FIRST can be acknowledged for much of the success and the successful rate that VEX is growing and making inroads in areas and schools. Many of the people that are passionate about VEX and who are growing it, currently have very strong ties to FIRST and are products, themselves, of the FIRST program, initiative, philosophy,competitions or have been - taking their experiences and knowledge gained from one program and pouring them into another.

It doesn't have to be a versus situation but will remain so as long as it is treated as such.

Just a thought.

Jane

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

It doesn't have to be a versus situation but will remain so as long as it is treated as such.

And that is the one blemish that sits on this whole discussion. The creation and implementation of the TSA/IFI program is a wonderful accomplishment. It is one of which both TSA and IFI should be proud. However, "VEX beats Tetrix and others..." is one of the most off-putting introductions to this story that I could imagine. To present it in a chest-thumping "Look - we beat Tetrix!" yell of bravado is both unnecessary and short-sighted.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: If between them FIRST, IFI, BotBall, BEST, and PLTW are collectively dedicating even a single neuron firing to the contemplation of how to beat the "other guys," then collectively they are all fools.

Let's look at some reality. TSA will reach 150,000 students this year[1], the FIRST Robotics Competition will reach an estimated 41,000 students[2], Project Lead The Way manages to contact 500,000 students[3], BotBall touches approximately 5,000[4], and the VEX competitions add about 6,000 more[5]. That is a grand total of about 700,000 students involved in these programs today.

As of 2007, there are an estimated 16,400,000 high school students in the U.S.[6]. So collectively, these guys are affecting a grand, whopping, huge 4.2 percent of the U.S. high school student population. That is right – 4.2 percent. Over 95% of the current high school students in the United States are not engaged by any of them.

Given a potential market that is 25 times larger than the entire population currently served by these programs – and remembering that it has taken nearly 20 years for them to grow just to this point – the ONLY focus that anyone should have is how to reach that larger market.

The publicly-stated goal of each of these organizations is to provide inspiration and education on STEM topics to those that have not yet "seen the light." You don’t do that by trying to convince those already converted that your particular phrasing of the message is better. You do it by reaching out to those that have never heard the message in the first place. A little less time spent on turf wars, and a little more time spent on reaching the 95% of students who are oblivious to your existence, might be wise.

-dave



[1] source: Technology Student Association web site: http://www.tsaweb.org/
[2] source: 2008 FIRST Annual Report, adjusted for 10% annual growth
[3] source: Project Lead The Way impact statement, http://beta.pltw.org/
[4] source: BotBall funding proposal, 2008 application
[5] source: discussions with VEX program representatives at 2009 national championships
[6] source: 2007 Databook, National Center for Educational Statistics



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[KathieK]

Thank you Dave! Way too easy to be drawn into a "versus" discussion. So... to hijack this thread for a minute longer...
our homework should be, what students have you brought into the fold this year, that would normally turn away from STEM subject areas? What are you doing to reach the 95%? (hmmm.. That would make a great button.) It's relatively easy to get a student who is already technically-inclined to join a robotics team. But what about those future NEMs like me? The humanities people? How are you showing them that technology is cool?
*end of hijack thread*
Congrats to IFI and TSA.

[NorviewsVeteran]

I'm just glad someone found a use for TSA- get kids ready for FIRST. *removes tongue from cheek*

[Pavan Dave]

In my almost 5 month vacation from Chief Delphi, I find it very appropriate** that the day I install Windows 7 and come to CD that this is the first thread I open.


I have quoted one my former mentors time and time again and I'll quote him time and time again because no matter how much you love FIRST you can not deny the logic of his argument. (Note, this quote extends to life, not only FIRST.)

Originally Posted by Natchez

Give me more tools; I’ll use the ones that are most useful for the job.

he went on to write

Originally Posted by Natchez

Our job is to build future engineers because our country needs them. It just so happens that FIRST is the best tool in our toolbox right now but there is a lot of room left. If BattleBots IQ becomes a useful tool to do our job, then we should use it. BattleBots IQ might be the very thing that we need to convince some schools to give us their students so we can build them into America’s future scientists & engineers.

Currently, the best tools in my toolbox are FIRST & BEST (Boosting Engineering, Science, & Technology) for the high schools, LEGO League & Botball for the middle schools, and LEGO Spectrum system kits for the elementary schools. Although I consider FIRST the best high school spring competition and the best tool in the ole toolbox, I can definitely see using a BattleBots IQ tool for schools that can’t afford FIRST.

Considering the enormous amounts of bright and intelligent students that we are not harvesting because they just happen to live in rural Mississippi or any other poor part of the country and cannot afford FIRST, we must find or make tools that will harvest these students. If BattleBots IQ is that tool, then we must use it. By far, the best tool that we've had in the past few years has been the NASA sponsorships (all of the Mississippi schools have been started by NASA sponsorships ... and have done great things in their communities).

With all that said, my vote is that they can coexist as long as both sides stick to gracious professionalism. Can FIRST crush BattleBots IQ like a cheap aluminum coke can with a few choice remarks by a few influential people? YEP! Can BattleBots IQ put on a "FIRST costs too much" campaign and bring it to its knees? YEP! I just hope neither goes that route.

Take care,
Lucien

Something to ponder: You're in the finals at Nationals and the 1/4" bolts that hold your wheels onto your base are loose and all you brought to the stage was a pair of pliers and a screw driver, do you tighten the bolt with the less-than-perfect-tool-for-the-job pair of pliers or do you just let your wheels fall off because the perfect tool for the job, your trusty ole 7/16" open ended wrench, was back in the pits?

As I see this topic go in this direction, please keep the ideas of this post in mind.

At the end of the day, FIRST wants us to spread science and technology. Correct? By FIRST's own goals, if Tetrix works better or Vex works better in different areas, gets different students, then in the end, does it really matter?

The end result is the same: more students inspired, more students involved, and hopefully more futures changed.


Pavan Davé



**For those who don't remember, I am not a fan or avid supporter of FIRST rather their idea of inspiring and getting recognition for science and technology sings to me. My upbringing in robotics was diverse and being brought up outside a "glorified FIRST" bubble I have always spoken my mind, called it as I have seen it.

And yes Dave, get some Tylenol, I'm back!

Originally Posted by dlavery

And that is the one blemish that sits on this whole discussion. The creation and implementation of the TSA/IFI program is a wonderful accomplishment. It is one of which both TSA and IFI should be proud. However, "VEX beats Tetrix and others..." is one of the most off-putting introductions to this story that I could imagine. To present it in a chest-thumping "Look - we beat Tetrix!" yell of bravado is both unnecessary and short-sighted.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: If between them FIRST, IFI, BotBall, BEST, and PLTW are collectively dedicating even a single neuron firing to the contemplation of how to beat the "other guys," then collectively they are all fools.

Let's look at some reality. TSA will reach 150,000 students this year[1], the FIRST Robotics Competition will reach an estimated 41,000 students[2], Project Lead The Way manages to contact 500,000 students[3], BotBall touches approximately 5,000[4], and the VEX competitions add about 6,000 more[5]. That is a grand total of about 700,000 students involved in these programs today.

As of 2007, there are an estimated 16,400,000 high school students in the U.S.[6]. So collectively, these guys are affecting a grand, whopping, huge 4.2 percent of the U.S. high school student population. That is right – 4.2 percent. Over 95% of the current high school students in the United States are not engaged by any of them.

Given a potential market that is 25 times larger than the entire population currently served by these programs – and remembering that it has taken nearly 20 years for them to grow just to this point – the ONLY focus that anyone should have is how to reach that larger market.

The publicly-stated goal of each of these organizations is to provide inspiration and education on STEM topics to those that have not yet "seen the light." You don’t do that by trying to convince those already converted that your particular phrasing of the message is better. You do it by reaching out to those that have never heard the message in the first place. A little less time spent on turf wars, and a little more time spent on reaching the 95% of students who are oblivious to your existence, might be wise.

-dave



[1] source: Technology Student Association web site: http://www.tsaweb.org/
[2] source: 2008 FIRST Annual Report, adjusted for 10% annual growth
[3] source: Project Lead The Way impact statement, http://beta.pltw.org/
[4] source: BotBall funding proposal, 2008 application
[5] source: discussions with VEX program representatives at 2009 national championships
[6] source: 2007 Databook, National Center for Educational Statistics



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[Brandon Martus]

I just wanted to reply to clear up a few things. There may be some confusion about the title, where it could look like I was comparing VEX Robotics Competition vs. FIRST Tech Challenge. I was referencing platforms, not programs -- not all platforms are created equal. The VEX Robotics Competition is a program working towards the same goal as any of the programs mentioned above (FRC, FTC, FLL, JrFLL, BBIQ, TSA, PLTW, BEST, Botball, etc.) and everybody at VEX has been involved in nearly all of them at some level in our past. We believe in the vision and goals set out by each of these programs -- get kids involved in and excited about science, technology, engineering and math. With that said, I am very excited about how the VEX Robotics Design System is continuing to evolve and provide thousands of students around the world with the tools necessary to compete at both the classroom level and at larger extracurricular competitions. We are especially proud of the new technology being added to the VEX product line, available in the next few months! No other platform comes close.