I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!

[ATannahill]

I usually don't post in heated threads and I hope not to regret this.

Dan, I thank you for all the assistance and dedication you give to FIRST. You are someone I look up to.

I do not feel that giving negative feedback about how people, especially those who donate time, talent and other things, are treated is a bad thing. At times, I have felt abused by people that request my time and I walk away worked up. It is important to settle down over time, some things might take weeks or months, before talking to anyone about it. A letter this long obviously had time and thought put into it. If it is posted here after three months than Dan has thought it through and stands by it.

I wish you the best of luck. Remember, if FiM doesn't want you in one of the positions then don't be discouraged, you shouldn't let the board members control your emotions.

[Molten]

If they don't want you, don't volunteer. If your a good volunteer, it's their loss. I really can't judge your abilities from the few posts I've read from you. However, I must side with those that say CD simply isn't the place for this. As someone posted earlier, Dave might stumble acrossed this...but so what? What are you expecting him or anyone else to do? You've contacted the people you need, now you really need to just wait. It might take years but that's what needs to be done.

Last note: Always think to yourself, is this the message I want passed onto my students? If you really want this to be the example you set, keep doing it. I, for one, wouldn't want to set such an example.

Sorry for the annoyance of this post, it just seems people are using CD more and more as a battleground. Please don't do that no matter what the battle is.

Sincerely,
Jason

So, is the TL;DR for this post "Bawwwwww, they won't let me do the volunteer job I used to do?"

That's all I read from it...

Forgive me if that's a little harsh, but FIRST isn't yours. It isn't an open organization nor is it controlled by outside members. FIRST let you help out. It's their organization, and thus their choice who helps and who doesn't. We appreciate your help in the past, don't get me wrong. But opening up some dirty laundry isn't exactly the best image to be showing off of oneself...

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by gblake

CD isn't FIRST HQ, FIRST HQ isn't a state's FIRST "board". A state board isn't a Regional Director, etc

Originally Posted by Formerly Famous

As we ALL know. Dave Lavery read CD. And several other FIRST "higher ups" so to speak. So. By posting it here he makes sure that those with power can see it. They may be completely unaware of the situation. Those with power can then help him, if they see fit to do so.

I'll not comment on the actual post, only a technical "point of order":

ChiefDelphi is NOT an official FIRST forum. If one wishes to communicate with FIRST, it is best done through an official channel, such as in a letter or on the FIRST forum.

If, however, one wishes to communicate with a section of the FIRST participants, ChiefDelphi is the place. But it's unofficial!

.

[JesseK]

Heh, this isn't 'war'. It's a robotics forum. Sure, it's a place to air out dirty laundry from time to time, but to 'wage war' against FIRST is to undermine the entire reason you volunteered in the first place ... right? So what you don't see eye to eye with the organization in everything it does. It isn't the first, and won't be the last. Such is life as an engineer, and you should learn to get over it.

Of course this is only my menial, unofficial, ambiguous, and otherwise fully c.y.a.'ed and caveat'ed opinion. It's even slightly uninformed because after the first paragraph I thought "dear God, it's another rant that goes on for ages" ... so I didn't even read the rest.

[Thermal]

Simply put, this is a valid concern, and a well written post. Just a terribly worded title. Don't jump on a guy for his choice of title, just read the post and make your comments. I believe he has a very valid concern and it does raise a few issues. I know of another volunteer who was overworked, under appreciated who ended up leaving FIRST because of it.

[Swan217]

As a follow up and lengthier explanation:

The above letter was passed around the offices in Manchester and resulted in the FIRST Volunteer Coordinator (Dennis Howland) calling me and having an hour long productive discussion. I reinforced my VIMS concerns and thankfully, a new version of VIMS is tentatively scheduled to be rolled out that should address some of my concerns. I also reinforced my support for the volunteer passport system (Yay!).

Dennis confirmed to me that the final decision at the Regional level lies with the volunteer coordinator, and that regional board members are not supposed to have any influence over the decision making process. This is not the case in Michigan, however. We agreed on this and agreed to work with the MI people to resolve this issue. Unfortunately, I just had a prearranged conversation with the MI Volunteer Coordinator who informed me that the Michigan board was refusing to talk with me, refused to tell me what vile, despicable act I performed to deserve being blacklisted, and was further restricting my volunteering to Robot Inspector only.

He further told me that the reason I was being restricted was because the Michigan board has set up new "qualifications" in order to be permitted to volunteer in Michigan. My refereeing, DJing, announcing, and MCing experience were apparently not enough to "qualify" me to be permitted to volunteer in Michigan. This is the part that is completely unacceptable. When power-mad bureaucrats are choosing who is allowed to volunteer and who isn't, and nobody is willing to stand up for the volunteers, somebody has to spread the word.

I have no illusions about what I'm doing. I'm perfectly aware that by posting this information on Chief Delphi, I'm pretty much signing my death warrant as far as volunteering in Michigan is concerned. But if getting the information out forces National FIRST to crack down on this insanity and Michigan is forced to permit volunteers that don't suck up to their power structure, then I'm willing to martyr myself for that end.

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by JesseK

... but to 'wage war' against FIRST is to undermine the entire reason you volunteered in the first place ... right? So what you don't see eye to eye with the organization in everything it does.

Not against FIRST. Against the corrupt Michigan FIRST group. It's like the difference between Al Qaida and Al Qaida in Iraq. Same name, same goals, different organization.

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

You are also including others in your attack that have, for their own reasons, decided not to follow this path of making a public announcement and declaration of 'WAR!!!' I hope that you have checked with them and received their permission to be included in this posting.

Clearly you didn't read through my letter. I explain in it that I find their humility and respect admirable for not speaking up, but I am not that humble.

Originally Posted by EricH

Ordinarily, the volunteer coordinator is the one you'd go through. If that doesn't work, the Regional Director. With this being MI, you'd go to the MI state board. After the RD or state board, you'd go to whoever the appropriate person is at FRC HQ; namely, whoever is keeping an eye on the state board. From other communications, I get the distinct impression that this would be the FIRST Board of Directors or the FRC Director.

MI VC is gutless, MI has no regional director anymore, just the Board which refuses to talk with me, Michigan has no oversight from HQ AFAIK. So I went to the top. Thank you for your comment on my tone. I aimed to keep emotion out of what is already a tangled, messy situation.

As for the title, I should've scaled back on the rhetoric and went with "This is UNACCEPTABLE!" instead. But it did catch some attention, and the only bad press is no press at all.

I have no independent knowledge of the situation. Without more information, I cannot have an informed attitude towards Dan's position. But I don't think the Chief Delphi forums should be a battleground, and beyond that statement I will not discuss my thoughts on this topic publicly.

Thank you for not having an opinion on this matter. Graciously.

If it is posted here after three months than Dan has thought it through and stands by it.

Actually, I wrote it in March, sent it in August, and continue to stand by practically every word in it. Both rtfgnow and Formerly Famous are partially correct on my motives.

Everyone else, if CD isn't the appropriate place for FIRST related discussions that affect a large percentage of us, then where is? Frankly, what I'm asking CD is - what the heck is a person in our situation to do? If anyone has any better ideas on what I should have done (other than going to hell), I'd love to hear them.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

Not against FIRST. Against the corrupt Michigan FIRST group. It's like the difference between Al Qaida and Al Qaida in Iraq. Same name, same goals, different organization.

I, as someone who had, has, and will continue to have high hopes for the success of FIRST in Michigan and across the globe must say that I hope you realize that not everyone in Michigan is "corrupt" some of us truly care.

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

MI VC is gutless, MI has no regional director anymore, just the Board which refuses to talk with me, Michigan has no oversight from HQ AFAIK. So I went to the top. Thank you for your comment on my tone. I aimed to keep emotion out of what is already a tangled, messy situation.

Sorry Dan but I would hope that personal attacks were beneath you. Regardless of whether the VC is actually gutless you shouldn't say it. Having doubts, disagreements, or concerns is fine but insults undermine your credibility and add nothing to your argument.

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

Actually, I wrote it in March, sent it in August, and continue to stand by practically every word in it. Both rtfgnow and Formerly Famous are partially correct on my motives.

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

Everyone else, if CD isn't the appropriate place for FIRST related discussions that affect a large percentage of us, then where is? Frankly, what I'm asking CD is - what the heck is a person in our situation to do? If anyone has any better ideas on what I should have done (other than going to hell), I'd love to hear them.

As someone who has seen Dan at several events and talked to him about similar things I don't think he wants war against FIRST or that he wants FiM to fail. I think (and he can correct me if I am wrong) that he wants it to succeed thinks openness is a requirement. I remember parts of this letter from a discussion in Atlanta. I don't think Dan is angry, he sees a wrong and is trying to right it. Plus, if there is a problem we shouldn't just ignore it. If someone who has been involved in FIRST as long as Dan sees a problem and it eats away at him for 8 months and he goes so far as to write a letter to FIRST HQ and have a phone conversation he is clearly not just complaining.

If FIRST HQ sees fit to respond to this we shouldn't just disregard it. CD is a place for discussion. This isn't internal team politics, this is stuff that affects every last one of us. If it isn't good to discuss it and get word out I want to know why.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

As for the title, I should've scaled back on the rhetoric and went with "This is UNACCEPTABLE!" instead. But it did catch some attention, and the only bad press is no press at all.

....

Everyone else, if CD isn't the appropriate place for FIRST related discussions that affect a large percentage of us, then where is? Frankly, what I'm asking CD is - what the heck is a person in our situation to do? If anyone has any better ideas on what I should have done (other than going to hell), I'd love to hear them.

For the first part of the quote: How is that really scaling back? Any time you have all caps and an exclamation point, that isn't really scaled back. Perhaps simply, "I Kept Quiet for too Long" would convey the same point without the un-needed yelling.

For the second part: I really don't care. Sorry to say it, but I'm not really concerned about your personal vendetta with FIRST(or whatever you want to call it). I'm more concerned about having a peaceful place I can give and take advice. Someplace that I can go to socialize and get away from the hostilities of the modern day. CD is kind of an escape for me from the every day hustle and bustle. Realize, I am not saying to not pursue it. I'm just saying that there simply might not be a place for such a public outcry. At least not currently. My suggestion would be for you(or anyone) to make one if you(or they) see it as necessary. I really suggest against public announcements such as this. They are generally used to create group hostility to support one's cause without the group having enough knowledge to really be hostile. So, I guess my advice would be to deal with it yourself and move on.

This is my last post in this thread. I've already given more time into this then I really should have. If someone has questions for me personally, please direct them to me via PM. I have no plans to follow this thread any further, however I do feel obligated to explain any part of this post if there is sincere confusion.

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

Frankly, what I'm asking CD is - what the heck is a person in our situation to do? If anyone has any better ideas on what I should have done (other than going to hell), I'd love to hear them.

I read this thread and your letter. I think all of us can agree that FIRST is not perfect and from what it seems like, you have been treated quite unfairly. It happens to the bulk of us and what you posted is still personal. At least, you put in some effort to help make the volunteering process better in your opinion.

That's about the best you can do.

After giving FIRST HQ and Michigan FIRST your two cents, there is not a lot you can do to control their actions.

You can't force them into giving you a position you want if they refuse to give it to you. If you are confident in your skill set, then maybe you should move on to another regional district or any other activities (maybe beyodn FIRST). I'd rather go where I am welcome.

In my dealings, I always remember this one phrase - "The value of a bar of gold is always going to remain the same".

Good luck.

[Arefin Bari]

The only thing I want to say to all this is ...

"FIRST isn't what it used to be anymore. It makes me upset and it makes me question many things."

[Wayne C.]

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

The only thing I want to say to all this is ...

"FIRST isn't what it used to be anymore. It makes me upset and it makes me question many things."

Ditto to that- Volunteers are people who should be treasured- not used as commodities.

When the FIRST world finally realizes they are a volunteer organization and not a mega-corporation with paid labor we will all be better off.

WC

[Tom Line]

I can understand the need to keep a list of people who are and who are not allowed to volunteer for certain duties. I think everyone who has been a member of a FIRST team can confirm that certain people simply shouldn't be doing certain jobs (even if they don't realize it).

However, the creating, maintaining, and auditing of that list is absolutely critical. Obviously it needs to be kept secret: telling a worthwhile volunteer that, for instance, they simply don't have skills to be an electrical robot inspector can be very hurtful to the individual.

Dan seems to have approached all the avenues of communication. Now, feeling that he'd run out of options, he went for the nuclear option. I can understand that and sympathize with it.

I certainly hope that Dan's airing of this 'dirty laundry' results in a positive reviewing of Michigan First policy and a formalizing of the system for 'blacklisting' people. Unfortunately, and much more commonly, an action like this results in a circling of the political wagons and the immediate commencement of damage control.

FIRST In Michigan is a new organization, and is certain to have some growing pains. So far they've done an outstanding job of laying out and trying something new: reactions have been incredibly positive. I sincerely hope they continue that postive growth by taking this as a postive cry for help that they can help to resolve.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Wayne C.

Ditto to that- Volunteers are people who should be treasured- not used as commodities.

When the FIRST world finally realizes they are a volunteer organization and not a mega-corporation with paid labor we will all be better off.

WC

I wasn't going to step in, and I still won't involve myself with any of Dan's statements, because I'm unaware of any details, BUT...

After working as an understudy to the Boston VC last year (I'll be a co-VC in '10), I just would like to say that not all VCs treat their volunteers as commodities. One very unfortunate isolated incident doesn't mean that ALL volunteers are treated as such, or that all VCs are the same. I happen to have a wonderful appreciation of the time our volunteers put in to the regional- I've been a volunteer -for FLL, FTC, FRC, FIRSTPlace, you name it- for many years myself, so I understand the commitment.

I'm sorry this happened, but I certainly hope that this doesn't scare people away from volunteering. Volunteers are the only reason FIRST events run at all. One bad apple -if that's what this is- shouldn't have to spoil the bunch.