VEX beats Tetrix and others in bid to develop a robotics competition for the TSA

[Rich Kressly]

Eric,
I do know that those VRC numbers are domestic (US only) as the total number of VRC teams worldwide is currently over 1,800. I can't speak to the other programs directly at this time. And, yes, there is unquantifiable overlap as you suggest/explain that makes Dave's percentage a "generous" estimate. I suppose all of that accentuates his point, doesn't it?

[Pavan Dave]

In my almost 5 month vacation from Chief Delphi, I find it very appropriate** that the day I install Windows 7 and come to CD that this is the first thread I open.


I have quoted one my former mentors time and time again and I'll quote him time and time again because no matter how much you love FIRST you can not deny the logic of his argument. (Note, this quote extends to life, not only FIRST.)

Originally Posted by Natchez

Give me more tools; I’ll use the ones that are most useful for the job.

he went on to write

Originally Posted by Natchez

Our job is to build future engineers because our country needs them. It just so happens that FIRST is the best tool in our toolbox right now but there is a lot of room left. If BattleBots IQ becomes a useful tool to do our job, then we should use it. BattleBots IQ might be the very thing that we need to convince some schools to give us their students so we can build them into America’s future scientists & engineers.

Currently, the best tools in my toolbox are FIRST & BEST (Boosting Engineering, Science, & Technology) for the high schools, LEGO League & Botball for the middle schools, and LEGO Spectrum system kits for the elementary schools. Although I consider FIRST the best high school spring competition and the best tool in the ole toolbox, I can definitely see using a BattleBots IQ tool for schools that can’t afford FIRST.

Considering the enormous amounts of bright and intelligent students that we are not harvesting because they just happen to live in rural Mississippi or any other poor part of the country and cannot afford FIRST, we must find or make tools that will harvest these students. If BattleBots IQ is that tool, then we must use it. By far, the best tool that we've had in the past few years has been the NASA sponsorships (all of the Mississippi schools have been started by NASA sponsorships ... and have done great things in their communities).

With all that said, my vote is that they can coexist as long as both sides stick to gracious professionalism. Can FIRST crush BattleBots IQ like a cheap aluminum coke can with a few choice remarks by a few influential people? YEP! Can BattleBots IQ put on a "FIRST costs too much" campaign and bring it to its knees? YEP! I just hope neither goes that route.

Take care,
Lucien

Something to ponder: You're in the finals at Nationals and the 1/4" bolts that hold your wheels onto your base are loose and all you brought to the stage was a pair of pliers and a screw driver, do you tighten the bolt with the less-than-perfect-tool-for-the-job pair of pliers or do you just let your wheels fall off because the perfect tool for the job, your trusty ole 7/16" open ended wrench, was back in the pits?

As I see this topic go in this direction, please keep the ideas of this post in mind.

At the end of the day, FIRST wants us to spread science and technology. Correct? By FIRST's own goals, if Tetrix works better or Vex works better in different areas, gets different students, then in the end, does it really matter?

The end result is the same: more students inspired, more students involved, and hopefully more futures changed.


Pavan Davé



**For those who don't remember, I am not a fan or avid supporter of FIRST rather their idea of inspiring and getting recognition for science and technology sings to me. My upbringing in robotics was diverse and being brought up outside a "glorified FIRST" bubble I have always spoken my mind, called it as I have seen it.

And yes Dave, get some Tylenol, I'm back!

Originally Posted by dlavery

And that is the one blemish that sits on this whole discussion. The creation and implementation of the TSA/IFI program is a wonderful accomplishment. It is one of which both TSA and IFI should be proud. However, "VEX beats Tetrix and others..." is one of the most off-putting introductions to this story that I could imagine. To present it in a chest-thumping "Look - we beat Tetrix!" yell of bravado is both unnecessary and short-sighted.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: If between them FIRST, IFI, BotBall, BEST, and PLTW are collectively dedicating even a single neuron firing to the contemplation of how to beat the "other guys," then collectively they are all fools.

Let's look at some reality. TSA will reach 150,000 students this year[1], the FIRST Robotics Competition will reach an estimated 41,000 students[2], Project Lead The Way manages to contact 500,000 students[3], BotBall touches approximately 5,000[4], and the VEX competitions add about 6,000 more[5]. That is a grand total of about 700,000 students involved in these programs today.

As of 2007, there are an estimated 16,400,000 high school students in the U.S.[6]. So collectively, these guys are affecting a grand, whopping, huge 4.2 percent of the U.S. high school student population. That is right – 4.2 percent. Over 95% of the current high school students in the United States are not engaged by any of them.

Given a potential market that is 25 times larger than the entire population currently served by these programs – and remembering that it has taken nearly 20 years for them to grow just to this point – the ONLY focus that anyone should have is how to reach that larger market.

The publicly-stated goal of each of these organizations is to provide inspiration and education on STEM topics to those that have not yet "seen the light." You don’t do that by trying to convince those already converted that your particular phrasing of the message is better. You do it by reaching out to those that have never heard the message in the first place. A little less time spent on turf wars, and a little more time spent on reaching the 95% of students who are oblivious to your existence, might be wise.

-dave



[1] source: Technology Student Association web site: http://www.tsaweb.org/
[2] source: 2008 FIRST Annual Report, adjusted for 10% annual growth
[3] source: Project Lead The Way impact statement, http://beta.pltw.org/
[4] source: BotBall funding proposal, 2008 application
[5] source: discussions with VEX program representatives at 2009 national championships
[6] source: 2007 Databook, National Center for Educational Statistics



.--.

[Brandon Martus]

I just wanted to reply to clear up a few things. There may be some confusion about the title, where it could look like I was comparing VEX Robotics Competition vs. FIRST Tech Challenge. I was referencing platforms, not programs -- not all platforms are created equal. The VEX Robotics Competition is a program working towards the same goal as any of the programs mentioned above (FRC, FTC, FLL, JrFLL, BBIQ, TSA, PLTW, BEST, Botball, etc.) and everybody at VEX has been involved in nearly all of them at some level in our past. We believe in the vision and goals set out by each of these programs -- get kids involved in and excited about science, technology, engineering and math. With that said, I am very excited about how the VEX Robotics Design System is continuing to evolve and provide thousands of students around the world with the tools necessary to compete at both the classroom level and at larger extracurricular competitions. We are especially proud of the new technology being added to the VEX product line, available in the next few months! No other platform comes close.

[Taylor]

Since IFI has been underwriting Chief Delphi for quite a while now, it is certainly their right to use this as a forum for chest-beating and bragging. It is a testament to their professionalism that they generally do not do so, and when they have the ability to, it is in a muted and gracious way (such as this).

In my eyes, this is nothing more than "Coke beat Pepsi and others in a taste test" - nothing disparaging is said about Pepsi, just that in this respect, Coke is considered to be better.

VEX and IFI are two of an ever-expanding list of world-class companies that cross paths with FIRST Robotics.

[edwardj]

This is actually the first time I've heard of TSA, being on the west coast. I'll have to look into them more.

But congratulations to Vex -- it's a great set of tools =]

One thing that everyone needs to consider is -- to make it so that more people participate, you also need to provide good stepping stones -- to lower the entry barrier.

I really loved Vex when I started using it because of it's well-documented parts -- you could basically hand the Inventor's guide to someone -- tell them to read it -- and reasonably expect them to know how the system works.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by edwardj

One thing that everyone needs to consider is -- to make it so that more people participate, you also need to provide good stepping stones -- to lower the entry barrier.

If you think you like what you see so far along these lines, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised very soon...stay tuned :-)

[Ben Mitchell]

I like Vex a lot - that's why I mentor 4 teams as an after school activity.

I think TSA make the right call - Vex is affordable, sustainable, and appropriate for the target population - Middle & High School classroom and after school programs.

I've given the basic kit and programming kit to students and have had them building and programming successfully in about 2 hours - the designs and programs just build in complexity from there on out. It's perfect to get kids started, and can be built up in sophistication to maintain their interest.

Reminds me a lot of LEGOs or the Erector sets. Awesome toys.