Poll on who builds your teams robot.

[Jared Russell]

Both mentors and students participate in the design and construction of our robots. Some students learn and are inspired by watching. Some students learn and are inspired by designing. Some students learn and are inspired by using their hands. We try to cater to each type of student.

[Steven Sigley]

I like that, good to cater to each type of student.

[keehun]

Sorry, I'm reading/posting during my Shakespeare class so I'll keep it short:

Team 2502 is student led, its robot is student designed & student built.

Our mentors are here to manage the Bank Account, form a standing relationship with the administration (although students have a hand in this as well), provide space, transportation to the competition, and most important of all, provide us with support, encouragement, some technical advise, and love.

That's just how we function.

Oh yeah they keep students from arguing too heatedly

[ttldomination]

Team 1261 takes pride in the fact that our robot is almost entirely student designed and built. When we win at competition, it is that much sweeter knowing that a mentor didn't build most of the robot, but rather it was our own effort/work.

Our mentors are extremely supportive, more supportive that some would believe, but they are here for technical support of the students. Our main school mentor handles the funds, keeping students on task, etc. Our technical mentors help out the students where ever they can best provide assistance.

Both the students and mentors are an integral part of the team, but mentors don't overshadow the students, and that is something we value in our program.

[keehun]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

Team 1261 takes pride in the fact that our robot is almost entirely student designed and built. When we win at competition, it is that much sweeter knowing that a mentor didn't build most of the robot, but rather it was our own effort/work.
[...]
Both the students and mentors are an integral part of the team, but mentors don't overshadow the students, and that is something we value in our program.

Unfortunately Dean Kamen doesn't value it as much we do...

[EricH]

Originally Posted by keehun

Unfortunately Dean Kamen doesn't value it as much we do...

I think he does. He, Dave, and Woodie have pointed out repeatedly that it should be students working with mentors. Exact method of working with is up to the teams to find their own balance that works for them, and I agree with that method more than the "no adults building" policy of FLL (and FTC, if they still have that policy).

[JesseK]

I agree with the "no adults" policy of FLL and FTC. Those programs have kits and are restricted enough that students should be able to put the puzzle together themselves with limited mentor support.

The thing about FRC is that teams that are all students all the time with mentor support from the sidelines really don't know what they're missing. There's a whole world of processes, design and materials that industry mentors can bring to the table if they're proactive. Having that experience gemoetrically accelerates college learning past what it would have been without the experience. This doesn't mean that mentors build everything; it simply means that excluding and restricting them closes the doors to the opportunity of being inspired or taught in a way you didn't know you could be inspired or taught.

It's like running on dial-up after you've already experienced 40Mbps fiber optics. If you'd never upgraded to begin with, you wouldn't understand the hype. Yet once you understand the fundamental improvements by switching and all of the new opportunities you never would have had on dial-up, you'll never want to go back.

[keehun]

Originally Posted by EricH

I think he does. He, Dave, and Woodie have pointed out repeatedly that it should be students working with mentors. Exact method of working with is up to the teams to find their own balance that works for them, and I agree with that method more than the "no adults building" policy of FLL (and FTC, if they still have that policy).

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I think when Dean was asked if he's fine with a team that had only mentors touching the robot, I think he said he was ok with that since all he wanted was to inspire students, hence the I in FIRST meaning inspiration not like application.

Well, I'd love to be proven wrong and I'd love to see Dean say that it's not ok to only have the mentors work on the robot..

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by EricH

I think he does. He, Dave, and Woodie have pointed out repeatedly that it should be students working with mentors. Exact method of working with is up to the teams to find their own balance that works for them, and I agree with that method more than the "no adults building" policy of FLL (and FTC, if they still have that policy).

Just to make it fo' sho' on FTC:

Originally Posted by Coaches' Handbook

MY PROMISE:
2. The students do the work. This is their opportunity to learn and grow. The students on my team do all programming, research, problem-solving, and building. Adults can help them find the answers, but cannot give them the answers or make the decisions.

One of the most inspirational mentors I ever worked with followed this general principle, and it made our accomplishments as a team feel that much better...

FRC is intentionally different, though, and I don't mean for this post to indicate that I think that's a bad thing.

Originally Posted by keehun

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I think when Dean was asked if he's fine with a team that had only mentors touching the robot, I think he said he was ok with that since all he wanted was to inspire students, hence the I in FIRST meaning inspiration not like application.

Well, I'd love to be proven wrong and I'd love to see Dean say that it's not ok to only have the mentors work on the robot..

There's a quote on these boards somewhere where Dean Kamen explains to a sponsor or some other official about what he thinks of teams that have their mentors work on their robot. If I could find it I'd post it, but I can't right now, and I've searched for about 20 minutes...

[Denman]

I believe it should be a student project, and i think this post here kinda says everything with regards to who should be building the robot and generally mentor roles
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...70&postcount=5

[NickE]

Originally Posted by JesseK

The thing about FRC is that teams that are all students all the time with mentor support from the sidelines really don't know what they're missing. There's a whole world of processes, design and materials that industry mentors can bring to the table if they're proactive. Having that experience gemoetrically accelerates college learning past what it would have been without the experience. This doesn't mean that mentors build everything; it simply means that excluding and restricting them closes the doors to the opportunity of being inspired or taught in a way you didn't know you could be inspired or taught.

It's like running on dial-up after you've already experienced 40Mbps fiber optics. If you'd never upgraded to begin with, you wouldn't understand the hype. Yet once you understand the fundamental improvements by switching and all of the new opportunities you never would have had on dial-up, you'll never want to go back.

This is the best analogy I have seen.

[Dowjonesbotics]

all you guys who say youre really happy that you have no mentoring or engineers are really really misguided. believe me, if my team was able to find help like other teams have we would take full advantage because professionals and mentors are resources. don't think you're better than others or something becuase you say you students or whatever built the robot all by yourself its not the point of FIRST and you dont know what other teams would do to gain mentors. im not saying that with mentors we would automatically be another 254 or something obviously but we would be better because we would be smart and use that important resource

edit i dont mean to criticize though you guys can do what you want just reconsider how much better off your team could be if you worked a little different.

[Steven Sigley]

I don't think that people are proud that they don't have mentors and engineers so much as they're proud their mentors and engineers are in a guiding role rather than doing everything for them and having the students learn by watching. They're getting to learn by doing the work themselves with mentor and engineer guidance to direct them away from designs with errors among other things.

[Stephen of REX]

1727 has a policy of "adults hands off the robot." Except for chassis welding or custom machined blocks, mentors and alumni never touch the robot. This is not to say that we do not have mentor involvement, we work hand in hand with our mentors, and they have opened a lot of doors for us with design options we wouldn't have even thought of. But our students have the final say in all design aspects and building of the robot.

[Pavan Dave]

Taking pride in not having engineers and building robots that work but perform like crap [for a lack of better words] is not the goal of FIRST. Sure you learned something but the fact of the matter is you could have gained more if you had a few engineers go "if we did this, you could ____" and in turm could have done better in competition.

I take comments like "100% Student build and proud" are worthy of a "Certificate of Ignorance/Arrogance"

I've jumped from a team where there was a lot of mentor involvement to one with very little.

At some times involvement was to the extent of around 40-50% (because students were not allowed to use the machines due to facility rules) but the ideas, were 80% students, they were just fine tuned with trial, error, and experience.

Now at a school where there is 80% involvement, sure the students can do a lot, they have to make with whats there, but they could grasp so much more if they had the experience I had when I was a student, and we're currently getting more mentors in more advisement and experienced roles.

Students have an idea. Engineers work with students to turn their ideas into a competitive robot. The rest is up to the Coaching staff...So if you're in the Dallas area and you're looking for an offensive coordinator position for a robotics team, we're taking resumes!

Pavan Davé