I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Pavan Dave

Many mentors around my age and older, who were FIRST students and now are mentors are irritated and almost fed up with FIRST to the point where we're uninspired by FIRST now. Is the point to gain a new base but lose an old one? The point is to inspire but if the contrary, is it really worth it?

Perhaps you should consider that it is we who are changing as we experience a new viewpoint more than it is FIRST that is changing?

[Alex Cormier]

I believe the past few years and defiantly in the future you will see a lot of discussions of the future and the past. This will also bring a different breed of rookie teams. This will all be explained by one thing; the core of the upcoming teams will be people who have been brought up through the system. With any person who went through a system, when they get older, they see the picture is a lot different then before. Also, changes good or bad will always have opposition. Forums are made for one point; discussion. You may not always agree on what a certain person has posted, but the great thing about it is that you are able to not click on the thread and read it. Dan has made a bold move with putting out his thoughts. Along with what Al said, I have known Dan for a few years and he is an intelligent man and deserves to be heard as is everyone else.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Pavan Dave

FIRST isn't what it used to be. Nor will it ever be the same again.

Once in a while I see a comment like this that is totally lost on me. I don't have any knowledge of what FIRST use to be.

Where we are is only of modest importance. And where we are going is what is really important.

Effectively growing programs like FIRST and making a very big impact on our society is a tough organizational management problem that will take some smart and creative people to make it happen.

FIRST is over 200,000 students, 85,000 volunteers, 3,500 institutional participants, and a few dozen paid employees. The institutional leadership/management challenge is not trivial. Solving it is worthy of an article in the Harvard Business Review.

If there is some sort of lost knowledge or magic from the past that FIRST possessed and doesn't today I'd like to know more about it so we can capture it for posterity.

[EricVanWyk]

Topic matter aside, I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is indexed by google. Although perhaps unlikely*, it is conceivable that the things said today could be picked up during the digital stalking associated with a job hunt.

This letter could easily cost Dan a job if it were found during the hiring process. HR does not want crusaders, it wants workers. I have seen this happen before first hand. Regardless of right and wrong, they hold the power.

It reminds me of the Dilbert strip where Wally is at a job interview, and the interviewer says "Your resume says that every boss you've ever had was a total jerk."


* This thread is the #1 google hit for "Dan Swando FiM", a reasonable search if it is included on the resume.

[Don Wright]

I found this ironic...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...43557087368947

[Paul Copioli]

Originally Posted by Pavan Dave View Post
Many mentors around my age and older, who were FIRST students and now are mentors are irritated and almost fed up with FIRST to the point where we're uninspired by FIRST now. Is the point to gain a new base but lose an old one? The point is to inspire but if the contrary, is it really worth it?

by Sean Lavery - Perhaps you should consider that it is we who are changing as we experience a new viewpoint more than it is FIRST that is changing?

Sean's point here right on. As a mentor for FIRST for 10 years I can honestly say that working with FIRST from a mentor's point of view has pretty much stayed the same. FIRST HQ's job is not to inspire, it's our job as a mentor. We need to shield the students on our respective teams from the political mine field that is FIRST (and any large corporation).

Remember, as a mentor, you are "they" and you are the reason the students come back. Do not think that you are supposed to be inspired by FIRST, but FIRST is to be inspired by you. FIRST is giving us the forum and it is our job to inspire.

I was never a student in FIRST, but pretty soon the majority of mentors will be former FIRST students (which will put me in the minority). I think that this year I may concentrate some of my WFA speeches at Regionals talking about how FIRST changes as you move from student to mentor as I fear Pavan Dave's sentiments are common among many former FRC students.

Anyway, remember that as mentors we have much more influence over the student experience than FIRST HQ does, hands down.

Paul

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally Posted by ebarker

If there is some sort of lost knowledge or magic from the past that FIRST possessed and doesn't today I'd like to know more about it so we can capture it for posterity.

My best guess can be summarized with this analogy: Think of a family gathering that is held every year. The few years only one family and a few friends take part. As the generations pass however, the children move away, create families of their own, and soon the small gathering has expanded into a hundred person get-together. The guests are all technically still related through the tradition, but the sheer scope that the event makes it feel different. Especially for those family members who took part in years past, this might feel like a horrible shift from the way things used to be.

This is only my second year in FIRST, so I can only speculate. Perhaps though, the lost magic is merely the fact that the "event" has become so large that much of the original "feel" might be gone. Perhaps we no longer know all the party-goers by face, or that there are some new games or foods that we really don't like. The fact remains however, it's still the same party, with the same family, and the same goal. As long as that at least remains the same, then the gathering is still the same.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

Its pretty encouraging to see that there can be some good discussion on CD even after a declaration of war (dangit Dan, that was extreme - its good that you have followed up in a more diplomatic fashion, keep trying). CD is a good place to have the discussion imho, because I don't think there is much discussion going on anywhere else. The concentration of volunteers is probably pretty high at this site. Hopefully the discussion continues in a positive way.

The FiM organization has some very hardworking and incredibly dedicated individuals who have a point of view. My experience has been that people who may have other points of view are not typically encouraged to give input to FiM. I'm one of 'em. I have tried to give input or ask questions in the past, with multiple approaches (private, public, official, unofficial), to get discussion going about making things better, and feel like it has not gone very far, and even put some people on the defensive. It would be great if the trend toward transparency applied in this great state too.

Its one thing to have a list of people who you don't want in key positions because you don't think they will do a great job. Its entirely another to have a list of people who you don't want because they don't share your point of view.

What to do? Maybe the best thing to do is to volunteer where we are appreciated. Communicate directly with the volunteer coordinator. Help the volunteer coordinators do their job, and expose situations where they are being overridden by politics. Make sure we are qualified for the jobs we are going after. Keep the discussions about this stuff going on, so others can learn from the experiences.

We definitely have to keep volunteering, we know that - FRC needs us.

Ken

I just really took the time to read and re-read Ken's post. It has my attention.

(There are at least 3 topics in this thread that I can count but I think this post connects directly with some of Dan's frustrations.)

One of my fears/concerns regarding districts is the potential for little fiefdoms to create themselves due to any number of reasons - one being lack of experience in managing the program on a district level. Another being a lack of common vision or shared vision for continual and on-going development at a district level. If voices are being silenced or shut out and no one is willing to listen to the wisdom of someone like Ken Patton and be open to discussions regarding how to improve and evolve by listening to wise input, then this shows a weakness, not a strength, in the developing program and its implementation.

[ebarker]

I think Paul and Sean nailed it on my question of "the good old days of FIRST". It took me a minute to figure it out since I'm ancient and never had the student experience.

I can easily see how a wide eyed youth can pick up a romantic view of FIRST and then later in life when they become older, more experienced, and more battle hardened become a little more cynical.

As Paul alluded to the battles that are fought in running an organization like FIRST exist in all organization, corporate, political, non-profit, military. That is part of the hard work of groups of people getting things done.

The literature is full of examples of youth entering the clergy, politics, business, education, etc with a not particularly realistic view of how things really work.

But as Paul said "they" is really "us". Paul has a real challenge explaning this in one of his speeches.

edit: As soon as I posted this and I look up at TV and there is this this special with Peter,Paul,and Mary, from the 60's. The days of the idealist poet musicians. Kinda reminded me of this discussion.

[Andy Grady]

I remember when I was a kid just out of high school about 12 years ago. I found this forum and saw that it was a wonderful place to share ideas about the game, building robots, teams and the methods they used to get through the season. It was an excellent place for a kid to really connect with other people and enjoy science and technology on a whole new level.

Today I look on this forum and I see alot of crap about behind the scenes politics and about how people are angry and miserable about this program. All things that were always very hidden to the eye of a student in my day. Back then, a student like me who was surfing this board enjoyed a sense of the magic that was a FIRST competition. Today a student surfing this board is saturated by the negative backdoor junk that they shouldn't even be subjected to.

Years ago I couldn't imagine FIRST without this board.

Today, I wonder if I should even promote this board to my kids at all.

Its a darn shame.

Maybe its time we should all get back to the basics...the joy of building something amazing with the people you care about.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

Today I look on this forum and I see alot of crap about behind the scenes politics and about how people are angry and miserable about this program. All things that were always very hidden to the eye of a student in my day. Back then, a student like me who was surfing this board enjoyed a sense of the magic that was a FIRST competition. Today a student surfing this board is saturated by the negative backdoor junk that they shouldn't even be subjected to.

Years ago I couldn't imagine FIRST without this board.

Today, I wonder if I should even promote this board to my kids at all.

I haven't been around long enough to know what CD was like back in the day. I do think however that to say that CD is saturated with negative moaning and groaning is simply not true. I'm still coming up on the first anniversary of having joined this board. The wonder of such an amazing group of people coming together to discuss our organization still exists. This is still the best place to come for information on robotics, still the best way too meet fellow FIRSTers from around the country, and arguably one of the best places to get some good laughs. I have never once regretted visiting this forum (except when I realize that I'm falling asleep in front of the computer, using my unfinished homework piles for pillows =).

But in all seriousness, there are still far more positive things to be found on these boards than negative ones. I recommend this site to all of my robotics friends, not because there are some somber discussions (those can be found anywhere), but because of all the wonderful things that this place has to offer. At least this year, that has not changed.

[Josh Murphy]

Ok, I have read through this thread a couple times now and pondered on how and whether or not to respond, and I have chosen to add my opinion on the matter, and I'm still not sure if this is how I wanted it to come out but here it is.

Dan, I know how you feel, and I understand the method to your madness. Politics often play a role in many things, and people may not like the outcome, but sometimes you have to just deal with it, as there isn’t going to be a change. That’s how the real world works. In the end you have to ask yourself why do I volunteer? Why do I sacrifice my time? and I’m pretty sure you’ve done this. I’m pretty sure you continue to volunteer not only because you enjoy it, but because you want to inspire in any way you can, and you want to help make sure everything runs smoothly for the teams a the event. I’m pretty sure that there are many things you’d like to volunteer for, but volunteering in itself should be helping out wherever needed. It is also just that, volunteering, you don’t have to do it if you feel like you‘re being singled out for only specific jobs. I know FIRST is a volunteer driven organization and they need every one they can get to make sure events run as smooth as possible. I also wonder sometimes why(and I’m not calling out FiM for the record) the state of Michigan alone has four(well three now!) Woodie Flowers Award winners and not one of them is on the board of directors for FiM. I don’t know the logistics of the whole thing and if they were asked or not, but I do know of at least one that has expressed interest in helping out. I don't want to get involved in that. In the end you just have to ask yourself if it’s all worth it as I have done with the choice to continue mentoring, and that is the I in FIRST, inspiration. If all you want to do is inspire, then be the bigger person and just volunteer where they need you, and inspire all of us no matter how we are treated by FIRST or the event staff or whoever, to continue their support for the FIRST program and everything it stands for.
As for the FIRST is changing people, it is but it isn’t. You are now seeing it from a different standpoint. I am a few years removed from being a student, and when I made the choice to mentor, I had to take a step back, rethink how things were, and readjust, because you realize that the way you’re used to seeing things done are not necessarily the way you viewed them as a student. I do support students becoming mentors because they can bring back their experience and pass it on. I also feel and this is just my opinion, that students who become mentors will have a leg up on the mentors that were not students, once they grow into a mature mentor.

P.S. Dan I know this probably isn’t what you want to hear, but just keep doing what you do because volunteering is better than just giving up and not doing it at all, and in the end you’ll feel better because you helped INSPIRE people to never give up. GOOD LUCK!!!! Dan

[Rion Atkinson]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

I remember when I was a kid just out of high school about 12 years ago. I found this forum and saw that it was a wonderful place to share ideas about the game, building robots, teams and the methods they used to get through the season. It was an excellent place for a kid to really connect with other people and enjoy science and technology on a whole new level.

Today I look on this forum and I see a lot of crap about behind the scenes politics and about how people are angry and miserable about this program. All things that were always very hidden to the eye of a student in my day. Back then, a student like me who was surfing this board enjoyed a sense of the magic that was a FIRST competition. Today a student surfing this board is saturated by the negative backdoor junk that they shouldn't even be subjected to.

Years ago I couldn't imagine FIRST without this board.

Today, I wonder if I should even promote this board to my kids at all.

Its a darn shame.

Maybe its time we should all get back to the basics...the joy of building something amazing with the people you care about.

I would like to begin by starting with my story of starting.

Then -
This year my team captain showed me the website. I absolutely loved it. Seeing as how FIRST is what REALLY got me into engineering, this was the greatest thing ever. I never saw public debates. Just people helping each other out.

Now - Though I have only been on Chief Delphi for 11 months, I have begun to see it differently. I still think it is wonderful. I still consider it the best site on the internet. (Second to MyLifeIsAverage of course. ) But I now see it in a different light. For it is not the site that has changed, but my view point.

What I am saying is this - Back when you start on this website, everything is new and magical. As you go on you begin to be able to pick out the minor problems. As time passes you begin to see the minor problems as big problems. (I'm not saying your wrong. I'm just saying this is what happens to me. )

Of course this website has changed. But this is due to the generation. This is the change caused by those who post here. If it is for the worse. I shall save that discussion for another time.

On the note of not showing this site to students. Why not? Why shelter them now? Where ever they end up going they will see it. Why not expose them in a controlled environment. In my personal opinion I would rather learn how to deal with it with a net to catch me if I fail then the shark infested pool we call the real world.

[Pavan Dave]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Part of that might be the natural order of things, in a way. There are some threads in CD that have discussed mentoring and participating in FIRST while attending college and/or becoming established in a career. Discussions about pros and cons and decisions and exploring new options. If people are uninspired and bring negative attitudes to the program, to teams as mentors, and to events as volunteers - how does that help the program and the goals of the program? Inspiration goes both ways, especially after one graduates from high school. For those who have been students in FLL, FTC, or FRC - the transition to mentoring or participating in FIRST as an adult may be smooth or it may be difficult. Some of the reason could be the expectations that the graduate brings to the transition. That reason can also be applied to the changes in FIRST as it continues to grow, expand, develop, and mature. Wasn't FIRST in Michigan a pilot program last year? Next year will be its second year as a district program. What was learned in the pilot program will be applied this next season just as in FIRST where each season has brought more experience and knowledge to the development of the program.

Perhaps this is an area that has not been developed or looked at closely. How do young adults make the transition? What can help young adults who want to stay involved, make the transition? Do they only want the glamorous 'rock star' status or do they want to work and apply the skills and knowledge that they gain while volunteering and/or mentoring while going to school or establishing themselves in new careers? Is this area of development being addressed and does it need to be? These are some questions that don't need to be answered in this thread but they can provide food for thought.

Jane

Just because a program is in it's first year, does not give it a right to be so problematic. "Michigan was just a pilot program" is no excuse, its like saying "he's just a kid" and we know that that doesn't hold up in a court of law, so why are we letting those kinds of phrases hold up now? Especially when even though it is a pilot, it has has had the experience of over 15 years? Yeah, I'll give you a few small things here and there, but the amount of emphasis put on it's pilot status for this organization is nonsense.



You know as much as the rest of us that the people who have dropped from FIRST for some reasons have dropped and the people who have stayed have stayed. From the tone of many people in my boat on this thread and my own personal history, we try our hearts out, we do what we can, and its not about college or about other things like that because we continue to mentor and spread a positive message, and will continue to do so with a smile on our faces [for the most part].

For me, what inspired me to a large degree was mentoring the FLL students at a local elementary school and seeing their eyes light up when they realized that engineering was all around them and they could be apart of it. I still see that light inside of me somewhere but its no where near as prominent due to the changes and attitudes of FIRST.

You ask about young adults making transitions and I can see that and can assure you that most of us don't do it for any "rockstar" status. I highly doubt the reason most people continue to be involved with FIRST is to be "popular". Of anything, some do it to build robots while in college, others do it to polish resumes, while others do it because they want to give back to something in which they've already received so much and for some its a mix and match among other reasons. But I refuse to believe that people like Arefin Bari decided to be mentors because one day they said "hey I wanna be a rockstar!" I don't just refuse that, but I can't even imagine someone thinking that.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Sean's point here right on. As a mentor for FIRST for 10 years I can honestly say that working with FIRST from a mentor's point of view has pretty much stayed the same. FIRST HQ's job is not to inspire, it's our job as a mentor. We need to shield the students on our respective teams from the political mine field that is FIRST (and any large corporation).

Remember, as a mentor, you are "they" and you are the reason the students come back. Do not think that you are supposed to be inspired by FIRST, but FIRST is to be inspired by you. FIRST is giving us the forum and it is our job to inspire.

I was never a student in FIRST, but pretty soon the majority of mentors will be former FIRST students (which will put me in the minority). I think that this year I may concentrate some of my WFA speeches at Regionals talking about how FIRST changes as you move from student to mentor as I fear Pavan Dave's sentiments are common among many former FRC students.

Anyway, remember that as mentors we have much more influence over the student experience than FIRST HQ does, hands down.

Paul

People change with time. After responses of people more veteran than me, I understand where you are coming from as I only have almost 6 years under my belt but from the past few years, many major changes have taken place and I guess I'm a bit blind sighted as I am still in the transition from student to teacher so I don't doubt that in 10 years I might be saying the same as you but from my observations, my feelings, and mutual conversations with people in my situation I call it as I see it.

EDIT2:
[quote]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

I remember when I was a kid just out of high school about 12 years ago. I found this forum and saw that it was a wonderful place to share ideas about the game, building robots, teams and the methods they used to get through the season. It was an excellent place for a kid to really connect with other people and enjoy science and technology on a whole new level.

Today I look on this forum and I see alot of crap about behind the scenes politics and about how people are angry and miserable about this program. All things that were always very hidden to the eye of a student in my day. Back then, a student like me who was surfing this board enjoyed a sense of the magic that was a FIRST competition. Today a student surfing this board is saturated by the negative backdoor junk that they shouldn't even be subjected to.

Years ago I couldn't imagine FIRST without this board.

Today, I wonder if I should even promote this board to my kids at all.

Its a darn shame.

Maybe its time we should all get back to the basics...the joy of building something amazing with the people you care about.

I understand because I feel some members of my team felt the same way when I joined these boards and voicing my opinions. But the reality is, if not now, when? If you post something completely stupid and one of your mentors chews you out, when will you learn? In the real world? I'd rather learn when my job is not on the line, where people are more understand, and where at the end of the day, regardless of our feelings, our end goal is the same, spreading robotics to inspire ... I can personally say that CD has had a major impact on my life in regards to what opinions you do voice because I had mentors that cared about my well being enough to scold me when necessary. Why deprive anyone of that experience? Also you get to see what's really going on and I was introduced to politics on a small scale. It, and being a key player of a robotics team helped me and prepared for the politics of life ahead, in college and beyond.... Why not start young? I'm VP of my fraternity because of my experiences in robotics.

Pavan Davé

[Al Skierkiewicz]

For all the recent members who are reading this thread, do not get the wrong idea. This is a great place to be and you should gather from this thread that there are people who can come here and speak their mind on any subject as it pertains to FIRST. You will find the true goodness of this board when the build season starts. For the newer mentors, this is a place where you can start long friendships and get some real answers to perplexing questions including volunteer issues, team dynamics and robotics. You are involved in potentially the greatest student activity (outside of school) and if you approach it with that knowledge, you will see we all feel we are not doing enough. We are passionate about our involvement because we know the impact it has had on so many. Have some left disillusioned? Of course. Any organization will number disillusioned among it's ranks, including boy scouts and girl scouts and church groups. This discussion is not intended to bash First but to help make it better.
To Ken Patton, as always eloquently expressed and even somewhat reserved.
To Paul Copioli, thanks for reminder, I needed that. We need to keep students at the forefront of our thoughts, always.
To Sean, keep it up, you have inspired me for a couple of years now.
To Jane, I wish we had you around here years ago.
To the others, I am happy you are here. Please stay, contribute, test us, inspire us, question us, it will make it better for all.