YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller

[Rich Kressly]

Maybe I'm just VERY slow here...

Can someone please explain to me how someone gets an extra discounted controller in this scenario?

Lucien did you mean to try and find a loophole here? Am I reading this right?

The way I see it you have 2 seasons, 2 teams, and the ability to purchase four total additional CRIOs over those two years, right?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

If NI was okay with it, they'd just offer x discounted cRIOs to all FIRST teams and not have a cap in the first place.

No, they mean completely different things.

Giving one to every FRC team that wants one caps the max number of controllers at the discounted price at the number of teams in a given year (T). Out of T only a percentage of them will buy a new controller in a given year (N). In the absolute worst case N = 1 and NI has to sell T controllers at the discounted rate.

In your world the max number would be XNT where X >= 1.* This is significantly larger number than NT.

Realize that normally N will be significantly less than one. I don't know what it would exactly but I would put a guess at close to .5 if not lower.

This is not a problem for Red and Blue though because Red and Blue both intended on purchasing a controller both years. Look at it as merely a loan, Red has the funds to purchase Blue's CRIO this year and in exchange Blue will purchase Red a new CRIO next year. I see nothing wrong with that aside from my distaste of purchasing things you can't afford. **

Where is the poll option, "Legal, financially irresponsible, but legal"

*
This is an abuse, really the amount would be the sum of all XiNiT where i is the number of CRIOs purchased in a year because less teams will buy multiple new controllers in a year.

**
Aside from things that only make logical sense to finance, a new house for example.

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

Maybe I'm just VERY slow here...

Can someone please explain to me how someone gets an extra discounted controller in this scenario?

Lucien did you mean to try and find a loophole here? Am I reading this right?

The way I see it you have 2 seasons, 2 teams, and the ability to purchase four total additional cRIOs over those two years, right?

I think at issue is that one team ends up with 3 cRIOs at discounted price.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

Maybe I'm just VERY slow here...

Can someone please explain to me how someone gets an extra discounted controller in this scenario?

Lucien did you mean to try and find a loophole here? Am I reading this right?

The way I see it you have 2 seasons, 2 teams, and the ability to purchase four total additional CRIOs over those two years, right?

Correct. But when you look at the actual numbers:

Bluateam buys one in 2009. Redateam and Bluateam both buy one in 2010. Straight purchasing.

Bluateam buys one for Redateam in 2009, traded for Redateam's 2010 controller. Purchasing agent, with fee.

4 controllers, 2 teams, 2 years. Correct total.

Now, here's what each team ends up with, who bought it, and how it ended up in their hands:
Bluateam: 1 2009 (Bluateam), 1 2010 (Bluateam), 1 2010 (Redateam, traded for Redateam's using Bluateam as a purchasing agent in 2009). 3 total cRIOs for Bluateam.
Redateam ends up with 1 2009 (bought by Bluateam using Redateam's discount, and traded for Redateam's 2010). 1 total cRIO for Redateam.

The way NI has it set up, it's supposed to be 2 apiece. There is indeed a loophole here, if you could pull it off.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by EricH

Correct. But when you look at the actual numbers:

Bluateam buys one in 2009. Redateam and Bluateam both buy one in 2010. Straight purchasing.

Bluateam buys one for Redateam in 2009, traded for Redateam's 2010 controller. Purchasing agent, with fee.

4 controllers, 2 teams, 2 years. Correct total.

Now, here's what each team ends up with, who bought it, and how it ended up in their hands:
Bluateam: 1 2009 (Bluateam), 1 2010 (Bluateam), 1 2010 (Redateam, traded for Redateam's using Bluateam as a purchasing agent in 2009). 3 total cRIOs for Bluateam.
Redateam ends up with 1 2009 (bought by Bluateam using Redateam's discount, and traded for Redateam's 2010). 1 total cRIO for Redateam.

The way NI has it set up, it's supposed to be 2 apiece. There is indeed a loophole here, if you could pull it off.

Once a team purchases a product it is theirs to do with what they please. If a team wants to buy a CRIO and throw it out of an airplane NI can't stop them. If Redateam wants to give a CRIO to Bluateam that is Redateam's business.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Once a team purchases a product it is theirs to do with what they please.

Which would be to treat it with respect in the spirit that was intended.

[Akash Rastogi]

Gotta agree with Mr. K on this one. This is FIRST, not Business Ethics 101. I also echo Andrew's latest post.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Once a team purchases a product it is theirs to do with what they please. If a team wants to buy a CRIO and throw it out of an airplane NI can't stop them. If Redateam wants to give a CRIO to Bluateam that is Redateam's business.

I don't believe this is the issue.

I believe the issue is whether or not a team (RedaTeam) has the right to offer their 'one reduced price cRio per year per team offer from NI' to another team (BlueaTeam) that they know has already used their 'one reduced price cRio per year per team from NI' offer.

I do not believe that morally and ethically we should be teaching kids to try and beat the system. Rather, instead, we should be teaching them how to work within the system to the benefit of all.

JM(NS)HO

[JaneYoung]

I'm wondering if this thread is a way to highlight the fact that more work needs to be done to understand Coopertition and what that means regarding team interactions, business actions and interactions, and the long-term effect of that understanding, misunderstanding, or ways in which loopholes that are found, can be used or exploited.

[EricH]

Redateam giving a cRIO to Bluateam was never the issue. Bluateam is getting, over 2 years: 1 free KOP cRIO and 3 (not 2) discounted cRIOs. Redateam is effectively being an unauthorized NI distributor at Bluateam's request--Bluateam is buying one extra discounted cRIO from Redateam. If it was given, no strings attached, no problem. Bluateam offers the help to Redateam with an IOU for the price (or not, as they choose), no problem. Bluateam offers the help on the condition that Redateam give Bluateam the current discount, questionable.

Also note that Bluateam seems to be the driving force in the agreement, and the primary beneficiary. This can raise other aspects of this exchange that could also be seen as questionable.

[Rich Kressly]

I guess this discussion and my ignorance of how on earth this single example of teams helping one another without cheating anyone out of anything is why, in 1989, Prof. Black asked me , "So, you're really gonna do this, huh?"

My original degree was in business management way back in 1989. My last semester we had the business ethics course with Prof. Black. I was already hired by the Sherwin Williams Company and I was due to enter their store management training program upon my graduation. After several class discussions and the first few weeks of class, Black stopped me leaving class and said/asked with a smile while shaking his head, "So, you're really gonna do this, huh?"

I was clueless in 1989, but I was speaking my mind and soul in the class and he knew then what I learned about myself later. I'm not a businessman and I never will be.

I lasted three months in business management. I've been teaching for a little over 16 years. I love what I do and I'm exceedingly thrilled I haven't had to engage in conversations like this in nearly two decades. I do try to maintain a sense of fairness though and I consider myself pretty vigilant about not cheating anyone out of anything.

I don't see a team here that is cutting these kinds of deals with a boatload of teams to become a "distributor" of any kind. I see teams helping one another. If NI and or FIRST were to come forward with an explicit rule about this type of exchange, then I'd certainly abide by a clear and stated rule. Until then, I'll still be ignorant of how this type of logic and thinking is formed. I'm done with this thread now. I think I'm gonna use the time to try and locate Professor Black. I really need to thank him.

[JesseK]

Rich, perhaps you could look at it from the engineering and procurement perspective of why does Bluateam really need 3 or 4 cRIOs, and why isn't Redateam questioning it? Why can't Redateam just be patient rather than going for instant gratification that borders on the shady side of business? It has nothing to do with cheating and everything to do with abusing a system that has been put in place to help each team equally. The rest of us should have a say in it because if Bluateam and Redateam screw it up, it grossly effects the rest of us.

Just like in general communication, "I'm an engineer" is no longer a valid excuse.

As a side note, the polarization of the poll and the two colors representing each side is irony at its worst

[Pavan Dave]

I agree with Bluateam. However, it is not that great as to deserve a FIRST Award for cooperation, but I must agree that they do use their mentors/parents/teachers/sponsor's lawyering ability to good use.

I agree that it is fair game. Not in the spirit of NI's contract, but still legal 100%. This is the real world. If FIRST ran the real world, you wouldn't have Enron, Freddiemac and all of those other peoples, but its not, and we have them, so might as well get used to them and play by their rules to the extent our morals will let us play them.

Think of each decision that you make as a matter of sleep. If you can sleep at night after this transaction, do it. If you'll have some trouble sleeping at night, don't do it. This will make your decisions in life much easier....Most of the time.


Pavan Davé


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[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

I don't see a team here that is cutting these kinds of deals with a boatload of teams to become a "distributor" of any kind.

... And here is the crux of the problem. While Redateam and Blueateam may not become a distributor, someone else might. I could even envision (*Shudder*) a team using this as a fundraiser ("hey, lets buy up all the cRios' that teams won't be buying ... at the discount ... and sell them on eBay for twice the price").

As I said before, it's about morals and ethics and what we really want to teach these kids.

[DonRotolo]

Wait a second.

I read that first post 5 times, so someone please tell me what I missed:

Blue buys a cRio and gives it to Red.
Red then buys one and gives it to Blue.

What's the problem?