[BB] 2010 Game Hint #1

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

That is the downfall of being a rookie team having the experience that veterans have they will always be at an advantage. Rookie teams just need to work harder and think smarter in order to try and level the field themselves.

Also if there is no camera this year than what was the point of introducing it last year photorecognition is something that is very important in robotic systems and I think it would almost be an insult not to include it.

You make a very good point about it being an insult to not include the camera, although I believe that you may have interpreted the comment wrong. It was said that a mentor believed that the game would be impossible to play without the camera, and that last year was supposed to be training on how to use it. A point about that not being fair to rookie teams was brought up - never saying that the camera wouldn't be used.

You're also right in saying that rookie teams will always be at a disadvantage. No matter how much of a bang you start out with, you'll almost never be able to compete on the same level as many of the seasoned veterans, some with more than 10 years of experience (there are exceptions, though). However, some effort must be made to level the field, for the sake of the rookies. While rookie teams do indeed need to work a bit harder and think a bit smarter to bring themselves up to par, they would be at a huge disadvantage if no effort was made to level the playing field. In addition to working harder and smarter, they're also still in the process of figuring out what the heck they're doing. Blazing one new trail is hard and stressful enough, but it puts you at an extreme disadvantage when your competition doesn't have to blaze any. There will always be new problems to solve, and different challenges to complete.

Now, back to that game hint.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by keehun

That doesn't seem fair to the rookie teams that will be joining this year. FIRST has and always will, I believe, to make the playing field as equal as possible. Last year, it was by adding lowered friction.

This post from back around Julyish may be of some relevance to you.

Originally Posted by dlavery

I am going to challenge one of the basic premises of this thread. It has been stated already in this thread (and several others) that one of the purposes for the changes incorporated into the 2009 game is to "level the playing field to close the have/have-not gap" for the teams.

Says who?

Can anyone show me where this assertion has been stated by any credible source?

Like so many other things, the "need to level the playing field" argument is urban myth. And like most urban myths, it is simply not true. While there are many, many factors that are considered during the design of a FRC game (some of which are obvious to teams, but many of which are not), I can state categorically that particular issue was never a consideration.

And if "leveling the playing field to close the gap" was not one of the intended effects of the game, then I am not sure why we are debating whether that gap was successfully narrowed or not.

-dave



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Originally Posted by Karibou

You make a very good point about it being an insult to not include the camera, although I believe that you may have interpreted the comment wrong. It was said that a mentor believed that the game would be impossible to play without the camera, and that last year was supposed to be training on how to use it. A point about that not being fair to rookie teams was brought up - never saying that the camera wouldn't be used.

Where do you guys get the idea that the camera won't be included? It's confirmed for the Rookie kits.

[Mark Holschuh]

Back in early December, I believe Dave Lavery posted a story that included loganberries and passion fruit (red and green balls perhaps?) and a stick. Before that we know that the GDC spent some time contemplating their Haagen-Daz ice cream cups. Now we see a bracket that perhaps carries balls to or from the playing field.

Perhaps we are playing billiards this year. Perhaps teams may be able to use a camera to help line up their shots. And perhaps the autonomous mode will be used for a 'break.'

Or perhaps I'm completely off, like I have been every other year.

[ahecht]

Originally Posted by skimoose

and who says it needs to be used in only one orientation?



As you can see there is also a convenient curve in the bracket between the rails which is similar to that lexan bracket.

I wouldn't use that model of rollercoaster as an example of ANYTHING. The Zamperla Volare (called the "Flying Coaster" at Elich Gardens and "Time Warp" and "Tomb Raider: The Ride" at Canada's Wonderland) is one of the most poorly engineered rides I've ever ridden.

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by Mark Holschuh

Back in early December, I believe Dave Lavery posted a story that included loganberries and passion fruit (red and green balls perhaps?) and a stick.

Yummm, loganberries. The berries are delicious, and so is the drink (my family has about 10 2-liters of it sitting in the basement right now).

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Where do you guys get the idea that the camera won't be included? It's confirmed for the Rookie kits.

I never said that it wouldn't be :/

[Randy Picolet]

I think I've read all the posts so far, and I don't recall anyone pointing out that the reason for the lexan bracket might be for electrical characteristics, rather than transparency.

I also haven't seen anyone suggest that the opposing holes on the ears of the bracket might make good mounts for a roller, which if of an appropriate diameter, could be used to sense (or even less likely, propel) a ball rolling along a track. This sensing could then be used either for scoring or as a trigger to operate some other mechanism.

In any case, I can't conceive of a reason for a structural member to be made of lexan. To me, it suggests a bracket for holding some kind of electronics. The steel pipes would then be plenty strong enough for field use, as in Overdrive, which used the same basic connector pin technique to construct the overpass and lane divider.

My $2/100.

[Pausert]

I think that as we all try to guess at the game it's important to remember the new Coopertition award and how you win it:

Originally Posted by Section 5

The Coopertition™ Award celebrates the team that best demonstrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition

[rulesall2]

Originally Posted by kgzak

after viewing 340x4xLife's post I think that they put some type of mechanism to return the balls to one spot, or recycle the balls to field. This would require high goals in order for the mechanism to work (gravity) = Idea 4.

Originally Posted by joeweber

Here is the game we will play

I have been reading this forever, and about a quarter of the way through (my hour long quest...) i came to he conclusion of a gumball machine. Teams are supposed to herd balls into a certain spot and it would be lifted upward into a funnel, much like one of those spiraling coin things, where the goal would be get as many of your colored balls through the hole in the funnel in the 2:30 time period you have. You could control the game by either scoring balls or herding the other teams, to prevent scoring. The hint is the piece of the elevator that would lift the ball. (The gumball machine isn't conventional, but rather one of the fancy ones you see in the mall)

[GGCO]

Originally Posted by Pausert

I think that as we all try to guess at the game it's important to remember the new Coopertition award and how you win it:

The Coopertition™ Award celebrates the team that best demonstrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition

Come on. Remember those points last year that were designed to penalize teams that did really well?? This is just like it, but WAY worse - it's just going to encourage teams to deliberately lose or let their opponents score on them at the end of a match. (both of which occurred last year at Michigan district events)

Teams should be rewarded for winning, and if they play unethically then I can guarantee that FRC teams would notice. But the same goes if they demonstrate gracious professionalism. Speaking of GP, what is the difference of this and the GP award?

[zakthemac]

those sound like great ideas!

They look as if they lock in with each other, what if its a hint like last year about hitch... i mean what if its used to lanch... like drop a ball down a ramp in to something.

Id hate to say this but what if its a part to the chasey and its a water game?

[Steve W]

FIRST loves listening to our ideas. I see the rails as holders for netting. This netting would be to hold the bean bags that are to be used in this years game. It's been a while since the floppies and they are due for a return.

[keehun]

My comment about the cameras was that I find it hard to believe FIRST will ever force teams to use the camera. I've heard of stories where even 10yr+ seasoned veterans (with great resources, I might add) had trouble using the camera because of lighting conditions and whatnot. Also in respect to cameras... With the new Classmate PCs as driver stations, it may change a lot of things...

[Jon Jack]

Originally Posted by keehun

My comment about the cameras was that I find it hard to believe FIRST will ever force teams to use the camera. I've heard of stories where even 10yr+ seasoned veterans (with great resources, I might add) had trouble using the camera because of lighting conditions and whatnot. Also in respect to cameras... With the new Classmate PCs as driver stations, it may change a lot of things...

Cameras are very sensitive to lighting conditions, which in turn makes them very difficult to use. Conditions vary from a team's workshop to the different regional events to the championships.

I'd even be willing to bet that camera values would change throughout the day in a place like the Georgia Dome where weather conditions outside can greatly effect lighting conditions inside.

[jamie_1930]

Originally Posted by keehun

My comment about the cameras was that I find it hard to believe FIRST will ever force teams to use the camera. I've heard of stories where even 10yr+ seasoned veterans (with great resources, I might add) had trouble using the camera because of lighting conditions and whatnot. Also in respect to cameras... With the new Classmate PCs as driver stations, it may change a lot of things...

Any team that didnt calibrate at competiton brought that on themselves, and the best thing to do was have it calibrated before at each match. Are team didn't but that was because we didn't end up using it because of complications but the time given to set each robot should allow, with a well oiled drive team, for proper calibration.

[Jon Jack]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

Any team that didnt calibrate at competiton brought that on themselves, and the best thing to do was have it calibrated before at each match. Are team didn't but that was because we didn't end up using it because of complications but the time given to set each robot should allow, with a well oiled drive team, for proper calibration.

I saw several teams try to calibrate during Thursday in Atlanta. I don't think the issue is teams not calibrating their cameras. The problem is the variance between venues, especially between regional venues and the Georgia Dome.

Plus how can you set your robot, turn it on and calibrate your camera in the couple of minutes you have on the field before a match?