The Downside of Having More Engineers

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by RobertG

It seems that a large goal of FIRST is to increase the supply of engineers; however, few people seem to realize the basic economic principle that an increase in the supply of labor without an increase in the demand for labor will lead to lower wages. While a few more engineers will be employed, they will be making less money. Young mentors are, in effect, training their future competition.

This is true if extensive competition for wages is allowed. If there's a huge supply of engineers, they will not be paid a high amount of money if someone is able to work for less. It was my understanding that generally unions, etc. try and prevent wage competition.

Employees are a bit different than other commodities in that aspect.

Most of the reason for FIRST is that there is always a huge demand for engineers, and not even always in directly engineering-related disciplines. One career I've always considered, for example, is collectible and tabletop game design; these fields look for people with engineering backgrounds to design game mechanics and components. There are more places for engineers than you might initially suspect.

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

OK, moving in a different direction: The general elements of an engineering education - advanced math, the scientific method, data analysis and error, project management, etc - turn out to be quite valuable in their own right. My opinion is that more than 50% of all engineers are not doing engineering in the strict sense, but are using their skills to benefit other segments of the business world. For example, I'm an electrical engineer, yet today I develop training courses as an instructional designer. My EE background helps me considerably in this task, since I need to understand the systems I'm trying to explain to mostly non-technical people. Oh, and I am extremely happy and satisfied with my work - it took me 20 years to discover what I love to do, and another 5 to get a job doing it.


So, if you're thinking of an engineering degree, get one and you'll likely never go hungry.

I just want to provide a real life example of what Don says - especially the bold part.

I have a BS and MS in mechanical engineering. I did that for 10 years and decided it would be fun to turn my hobby into my job. I quit engineering in May of 2006 for a career as an airline pilot. I did that at one company for about 2.5 years, then switched to a different company for 1 year. Due to various factors, the company that I was working for decided to park 23 airplanes which results in about 230 pilots being furloughed. Since I was in the bottom 230 on the pilot seniority list, I was furloughed November 1st of 2009. Thanks to my engineering degrees, I began working again as an engineer December 1st of 2009. Not too bad to be out of work for only one month given the state of the economy and the unemployment rates.

Due to the union contracts in the pilot world, the company is required to recall pilots on furlough before they can hire anyone new off the street. So when times get better, I'll be given the choice to go back to flying. Will I do it? I don't know yet, but it sure is nice having a great paying engineering job while most of my fellow pilots of furlough are collecting unemployment while looking for jobs that pay barely better than minimum wage. My engineering degrees are paying off big time.

[Kims Robot]

A great topic to stir up thought, and some great responses... a lot of thought in all of them

A few things come to mind... while overall engineering is a great career and supply/demand is favorable, I have seen instances where there is oversupply. Granted its location-based... but ask any aeronautical or mechanical engineering student that graduated in the northeast in 2002 or this year... jobs are NOT just falling at their feet. They may have to locate away from their families, away from home, even across the country to get a job in the US as an engineer. While most Aero's I knew when I graduated (2002), ended up with jobs, I would say 99% of them were as mechanical engineers, not the profession they chose exactly. I also know that more often than other years, the year I graduated and last year/this year there were a lot more college students that didnt have job offers before they graduated. Its already a little of a tough field.

Now if you are willing to think outside the box and not necessarily "be who you intended to be" there are a lot more engineering jobs than you might imagine. Honestly, I never really knew "systems engineer" was a title until I was graduated and got offered a job as one. I still apply all my engineering skills, and a lot of systems engineers have an electrical background, but I didnt get a job as "an electrical engineer".

While I see a lot of the shortages of supply most years (it was a pain when I was recruiting and offer after offer for the "good college engineers" got turned down), we do have to be careful that it follows the economy, and to understand and set expectations appropriately. Good college and good grades are still huge factors in getting a job right out of college.

All this said, I dont think we will see supply exceed demand any time soon, with the retiring generations, and the still slow growth of STEM interest, I dont think having a program like FIRST encouraging kids is going to overfill our bucket for quite some time.

And as Jason points out, just because you have an engineering degree doesnt mean you HAVE to be an engineer

[RobertG]

It sounds like there might be such high demand for engineers that the supply curve for engineers is nearly vertical. This means that higher wages do not attract more applicants than lower wages. If this is the case then a small increase in supply (right shift of the supply curve) will not decrease wages. Is this portrayal of the engineering industry accurate?

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by gwilliam

American-born students often aren't interested in science or engineering, or aren't interested in working hard to succeed in the classes. So half of the places in the graduate school classes go to ambitious, intelligent, hardworking students who just happen to have been born and gone to college in another country.

I think you are making some hasty generalizations here. I will not dispute that a business degree is the most popular at most schools and many aren't interested. However, I think you are overlooking a lot of other aspects that need to be considered.

1) Overall there are fewer students, as is the case with European countries where some are starting to experience a negative population growth.

2) There is a vast discrepancy being caused by the baby boom generation retiring throughout society (health care for example). We have gone a lot of years with these poor graduation rates but without much attention to it.

3) College is expensive. Many people I know do not pursue graduate degrees because they have accumulated a tremendous amount of debt in their undergrad, not for lack of interest or desire.

4) Do not discount leadership. NASA and the shuttle launches inspired a generation of young people. When you have a president bringing this message to the people like JFK it is hard to ignore the call to service.

5) Competition!!! Places like India and China have tremendous competition over jobs so a bachelor's degree is less powerful in finding a job there but they can come here and get a graduate degree instead. As my coworker from china just said in china you either go into a technical field or you work labor like a dog.

I think we need to stress the importance of STEM careers but I don't think blaming the American student is the correct method. There is more than enough blame to go around, try the education system, try the tax payer that has devalued education. We pay more to put a person in prison than we do to educate a person (yearly that is) which I think says something about the culture at large. I think we have something like 5% of the world's population but approximately 25% of the world's prison population.

Sorry that this took a politically preachy turn, but I take the 'change the culture' term beyond just STEM jobs and STEM curriculum.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by RobertG

It sounds like there might be such high demand for engineers that the supply curve for engineers is nearly vertical. This means that higher wages do not attract more applicants than lower wages. If this is the case then a small increase in supply (right shift of the supply curve) will not decrease wages. Is this portrayal of the engineering industry accurate?

I think the overall issue is a little more complicated than basic economics.

[Tetraman]

Any of you Engineers who want to become Industrial Designers, just let me know. I'll show you the real ways of designing.

But in seriousness, I never had the mind for the engineering part of FIRST, but FIRST did lead me to use my artistic mind to Industrail Design. I kinda wish that FIRST would put asthetics into a greater spotlight.

[skimoose]

Originally Posted by RobertG

It sounds like there might be such high demand for engineers that the supply curve for engineers is nearly vertical. This means that higher wages do not attract more applicants than lower wages. If this is the case then a small increase in supply (right shift of the supply curve) will not decrease wages. Is this portrayal of the engineering industry accurate?

Yes, this is more accurate assessment of the engineering profession in general.

Many people posted great information.

Kim is correct that at any time there can be regional or industry based oversupplies of engineers, but one of the keys with the engineering field is a broad knowledge base. Advanced degrees may narrow your field of expertise, but your BS degree has given you tools which can be used in a very diverse number of industries. Sometimes finding a good job just means broadening your search into other industries that you hadn't thought about before.

As the other posts here have shown, I would contend that possessing an engineering degree makes you more employable than any other degree including business. Nearly all of the best managers and leaders I've worked under were originally engineers, not business majors.

Now if we could just get to a majority of politicians being engineers instead of lawyers we might get this country moving again.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Jon Jack

My dentist also has a civil engineering degree, with a PE.

That would be great experience. He can build bridges, make a dam, drill and and do proper surveys. What more could be asked for.

[indieFan]

This post is meant to be all in fun. It does respond to the previous post, but it does not actually contribute to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Steve W

That would be great experience. He can build bridges, make a dam, drill and and do proper surveys. What more could be asked for.

I've heard of "bridges" for mouths and "drilling" for cavities in teeth. I suppose by "surveys" you mean checking the x-rays and/or the mouth for any anomalies and all. But I've never heard of a "dam" in dentistry. Has anyone else?

indieFan

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by indieFan

I've heard of "bridges" for mouths and "drilling" for cavities in teeth. I suppose by "surveys" you mean checking the x-rays and/or the mouth for any anomalies and all. But I've never heard of a "dam" in dentistry. Has anyone else?

From Wikipedia:

A dental dam (sometimes known as a "Kofferdam"--from German), is used mainly in endodontic treatment and when putting fillings into teeth. They are thin squares of latex rubber. Silicone versions are available for those with latex allergies.

Basically, it's a latex sheet fit over a mouth, with a precisely sized hole for the tooth being operated on.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by indieFan

I've heard of "bridges" for mouths and "drilling" for cavities in teeth. I suppose by "surveys" you mean checking the x-rays and/or the mouth for any anomalies and all. But I've never heard of a "dam" in dentistry. Has anyone else?

The term you want to search for is "Dental dam". Here's a definition I found

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

Also called rubber dam. a thin piece of latex placed over the tooth or teeth being treated during endodontic treatment or other dental work.

I will warn anyone attempting to find more information on this subject that when searching the vast majority of results will be for a non-dental use and may be inappropriate for some users of the forum.

[GGCO]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Just because you study engineering at university doesn't mean that you need to work as a P.Eng.

Engineering is a fabulous background for many careers.

Jason

Exactly what I think! Statistics show that most people who graduate from College don't actually work in their field of study later on in life.

I had this discussion with my parents. They were concerned that engineering jobs would be soon shipped overseas. They're totally wrong - U.S. engineers will always be in demand, as long as they're the best in the world. Besides, if you have social and communication skills along with a background in engineering, you can really "go places". The phrase "geeks will run the world" is partially true - it really should be "personable geeks will run the world".

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I think one needs to ask the question..."If the US has 200,000 engineering jobs that are unfilled, how are the current engineers keeping up with the demand?"
I think the answer is "They are not". There may be many companies with ideas or projects that simply cannot be be accomplished so they remain in limbo until the company can fill the jobs needed. Ironically, that would lead to additional jobs in the production and implementation of the ideas. To be more specific as Art has pointed out, the electrical supply industry is sadly lacking engineers. This translates to maybe less efficient methods of transmission, generation and monitoring. We have all heard of the aging power grid and engineers are needed to correct that problem. Other industries are also dealing with similar problems. Has anyone seen any truly innovative furnace designs recently? How about faucets, solar power devices, snow blowers?
In past years there has been a definite shift of engineering jobs to other countries but US firms are starting to see the error of that decision. To outsource means giving up control, the security of company ideas, the ability to meet deadlines, and the loyalty of it's workers. There is always the problem of overseeing the work, communicating with a team that is halfway around the world in a different time zone and responding to problems as they occur. The money saved evaporates in travel costs, workers become more demanding as to wages and benefits, shipping costs skyrocket. What do you do when your customer is waiting for your product and it's in a shipping container somewhere in Hong Kong waiting to get loaded on to a (slow) ship.
I remember all the news stories in the 90's about how the US was turning into a service related workforce. Engineering and manufacturing needed to be shifted to countries with cheap labor and no environmental controls while the majority of US workers would be providing data service, health care service, business support and computer service to the world. It sounded good to many people then, but there were others that saw it as short sighted. It forced manufacturers to change designs so that systems could be maintained from afar. Service people could call in their repairs or simply tell you what you needed to replace over the phone. Often the cost of repairs skyrocketed as manufacturers who lacked sufficient technicians to make repairs were forced to design and deliver systems that allowed replacement of entire subsystems instead of attacking a single failed component. Initially this lead to higher new sales as consumers were forced to replace instead of repair but now, consumers are finding it hard to convince their CFOs that they have to replace a system that hasn't even been depreciated.
As to unions and wages, unions are simply workers banning together to allow for collective bargaining with their employer. Generally that means setting minimum wage rates and benefits for employee groups with different skill levels, fixing job responsibilities (jurisdiction) and providing a method for dealing with the company on issues and contract violations. Although there are engineers who are union members, it is more the exception than the rule. I am a union member who is an engineer but my group is more at a technician level.

[delsaner]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Just because you study engineering at university doesn't mean that you need to work as a P.Eng.

Engineering is a fabulous background for many careers.

Jason

Precisely. My aunt graduated college with a degree in mechanical engineering, and she currently teaches math and a community college. I may be taking this road as well.